When a champ is a little too good, at a little too many things. [A study on Garen]

There are some champs in the game, who are just a little too well rounded. They are just a little too good at most things. Some of these champs include, _Trundle_, _Nasus_, as much as I hate to admit it.... _Swain_, and of course, Garen. All of these champs excel in certain things (like all champs do), but they also do particularly well in more aspects of the game than other champs do. _______________________________ #Swain as an example Im going to use Swain as an example, because I know him well, I play Swain mid _(like... a LOT)_, and as a mid laner he is very healthy in comparison to most, he can survive most other mid laner's bursts with less sweat than many can. But he can also dish out enough damage to cripple or kill a great many of the mid lane pool champs. On top of this, he has great lane sustain, medium-low mana costs, and unlike many mages, can hold his own against fighters and assassins that gank or roam, even in a 1v2 situation. He doesn't have as much damage as Azir, he doesn't have as much health as Galio, he doesn't have as much CC as Sol, the sustain of Vladimir, nor does he have the wave clear of Vel'Koz or the poke of Ziggs. But he has a decent amount of all those things. He has more heath, sustain and CC than Azir, while still having a decent chunk of Azir's damage. He has more damage, wave clear, and poke than Galio, but still isn't far behind him for health. He has more Health, sustain, wave clear and poke than Sol, but still has almost as much CC. More damage and CC than Vladimir, but still comes out with a good amount of lane sustain. You get the idea.. Sometimes being good at most things, rather than a specialist at one thing makes a champ just a little too well rounded. It doesn't open enough room for specific counterplay. To be absolutely honest, I don't really know the distinct counterplay to Swain, despite playing him so much. When I die, it's usually my fault, I over extended, or got caught out, had shit map awareness, or got too cocky. Its not often because they were exploiting some weakness in my champ, and absolutely counterplayed me. I get outplayed for sure don't get me wrong, but thats usually my fault for being not as good as the enemy, not a weakness of Swains being exploited. He just kind of bulldozes his way through most things without you having to try quite as hard as other champs do. When I play Sol, 70% of my deaths are just _"Shhhhhh, take your hands off the keyboard Sesh... its over."_ type deaths, where Master Yi or Yasuo just runs circles within my stars. My champ getting blitzed by their champ. Obviously Sol is an extreme example, but he very clearly defines the parameters of _"Very strong strengths, and very weak weaknesses."_ So I want to create some discussion about these champs, and wether people think they are healthy or not. Particularly, a champ who is on everyone's mind at the moment. _________________ #**Garen** I know its my own personal view, but I have always maintained that a champion's damage output should be roughly inverse to how much damage they can take before dying. E.g. If you have a huge damage output like Vayne, you should have to be very squishy (and she is). And if you are really hard to kill, like Rammus, you shouldn't have the duelling capability and DPS of a champ like Vayne (and he doesn't). In no way it seems, does this principle apply to Garen. Garen builds full tank, with 1 _(sometimes 2)_ AD items, and even those items are healthy ones like Black Cleaver and Steraks. So he comfortably gets over 4k health. Yet with a single E can easily reach over 1000 damage. Lets put up a standard Garen build _(comprised of the recommended items, favouring defence, rather than offence)_. {{item:3111}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3742}} {{item:3065}} {{item:3143}} {{item:2138}} The stats this gives him (coupled with runes) is: **HP:** 4474 **Mana:** N/A **AD:** 271 **Ability Power:** 0 **Armour:** 247 _(with W passive)_ **Magic Resist:** 173 _(with W passive)_ **Attack Speed:** 0.93 **Cooldown Reduction:** 40% **Critical Strike:** 0 **Movement speed:** 439 These stats will cause: His Q to deal **542** damage _(plus 1% maximum HP true damage to the villain)_. His W to give him **60%** damage reduction (falling to **30%** after 0.75 seconds), and reach **79%** total tenacity. His E to deal a total of **1363** damage, _(increased to **1812** against a single target)_, (plus 10% maximum HP true damage to the villain) His R to deal **525** plus **40%** of the enemy's missing HP in magic damage _(true damage to the villain)_. This gives him a total damage output of: **2979**, plus **40%** of the enemy's missing HP. _(Plus **11%** maximum HP damage to the villain)_, all in just over 3 seconds. For 1 of those 3 seconds he has **60%** damage reduction and **79%** tenacity, for the rest of it has **30%** damage reduction, and is at **519** movement speed for the whole time. I dont know a single champ in the game _(except maybe Cho'Gath with his 10k HP)_, who can survive over 1000 damage per second, plus essentially 50% of their HP as true damage, and still be fighting fit after 3 seconds. _________________ Now, I know everyone's defence of Garen _"Just kite him bro, and he's easy."_ Naturally the best kiting champs are usually ADC's, so I picked a standard ADC (Jinx). She's not super great at kiting nor is she super bad, so its fair. Im not using Ashe, and I'm not using Kog'Maw, _(because you're not going to have Ashe on your team every time you fight Garen, you're going to have a random ADC)_ At the same level, with the same number of items _(standard build, using the recommended items)_. Jinx has **2028** HP, **128** armour, and **39** magic resist. If we are to assume that Jinx _is_ the villain _(lets be honest, if there is a Jinx in the game, she is most likely to have the most kills in the last 5 minutes, such is the nature of hypercarries.. or just the ADC role in general)_. She would be receiving **2354** physical damage, **100** magic damage, **223** true damage, and **40%** of her missing HP plus another **525** true damage. If my understanding of how resistances work is correct _(feel free to correct me if otherwise)_, thanks to her armour and magic resist she would take only **1036** physical damage, **72** magic damage, and **223** true damage. Thats **1331** HP gone out of her **2028** (66%). Which means Garen's ult would deal **801** true damage. Killing Jinx with room to spare, meaning he will be able to ult sooner, and not even need to spend the full 3 seconds attacking. _________________ Firstly, does she need to kite? Can Jinx turn and fight? Duke it out as it were, Garen is a tank, and its the ADC's job to kill tanks after all. Jinx has an attack speed of **1.46** with the minigun. Crits for **782** with the minigun, and **860** with fishbones. Her W does **835** physical damage. Her E does **270** magic damage. And obviously she wont be using her ult in this situation. Within the less than 3 seconds it takes Garen to kill her, she will be able to land 4 auto attacks, if we are to assume that she uses her W and E before Garen reaches her, and they both land _(unlike Garen they are both delayed skill shots)_ thats **4745** physical damage, _(assuming she crits on every auto attack)_. Plus **270** magic damage from her E. Her mortal reminder would nullify **35%** of Garen's armour taking his physical damage reduction from **71%** to **46%** _(again, I'm not a mathematician, and I am not 100% sure on the exact way resistances work so if I've made a mistake, please feel free to correct it!)_. Factoring in his **30%** overall damage reduction, this brings his physical damage reduction back up to **62%** Meaning he takes **1803** damage physical damage. _(we are going to ignore his 60% damage reduction, as it will probably be wasted when he used his W to escape Jinx's traps)_ and he takes only **68** damage from her traps thanks to his **63%** magic damage reduction from MR and W. which means he takes overall; **1871** damage from his **4474** HP from Jinx in the time it takes for him to 100-0 her. _(and imagine if he had thornmail too) _ So... **No.** she can not turn and fight. _____________ Now we resort to kiting. Taking what we learned above, she would need to kite him for roughly 6-7 seconds in order to kill him. Garen has **519** movement speed. Jinx has **396**. Already thats a large difference. Garen negates Jinx's W slow, and is snared for 0.3 seconds by her E trap. that gives Jinx say a 0.5 second head start, allowing for human reaction speeds. Although that head start is somewhat nullified by Garen's Randuin's Omen active, which reduces Jinx's movement speed to **218** for 2 seconds. Not to mention the deadman's slow. So please, genuinely, tell me how Jinx is supposed to kite someone with a **301** move speed lead on her, even if Garen begins at her max range. I want to know. Tbh I doubt even Ashe or Kalista could make it _possible_, let alone a 'viable counterplay'. And this is all without even bringing keystones into the equation, if Garen was running predator _(which many do, and it's fucking terrifying)_ there wouldn't be a shit show in hell, he would be on top of Jinx before she knew he was even coming. And if he wasn't running predator, and was using a damage mastery instead, well it would take him even less time to kill her. So he would only have to catch her for a second or two to end her. Not to mention this is all assuming he uses his silence AFTER the Judgement, spin, and not before. If he used it before, he would lose a little bit of MS _(that is deadman's procing)_, but would also slow her and make her unable to use either her W or E anyway. Either way, the odds are stacked inexorably in his favour. **Also, may I just remind the audience that this is _Tank_ Garen we are talking about.** He has 2 damage items, and they are both at the defensive end of the scale. God forbid he should add in a 3rd damage item, or even go crit Garen. ________________ So thats what happens when your average ADC tries to kite Garen. Lets assume _(crazy I know, even just considering the possibility)_, that we belong to the 80% of the population, NOT playing ADC's against Garen, i.e. Mid lane and top lane, and jungle, and support for example. Now, if Jinx couldn't kite Garen. How will the Shen top be able to? He's almost as tanky as Garen, and has about 1/3 of the damage, so poor Shen won't win that duel, especially as Garen's ult makes him able to half-hit tanks. What about me in mid lane with your standard mage, even as Veigar I wont be able to burst him down, and I certainly wont be able to run from him, _immobile_ mages aren't known for being the most _mobile_ of champs. Bye bye Soraka! And someone please tell me how the Amumu or Rengar jungle is going to 'kite' Garen? So, maybe the pros know something I don't, but for the rest of us 90%ers who live on planet earth and come home from school or work and play some games with the squad. _"Just kite him bro, and he's easy."_ Isn't a viable strategy. On top of his damage-tankiness ratio being out of whack, he has so much freedom! He's hard to gank with his CC nullifying tenacity, and his slow removing movement speed buff. Unless you're a manaless ranged champ with spammable poke, you wont be able to keep his passive down AND keep up in farm, while in lane. So he will regen and stay with the HP advantage all lane. He excels in quick lane trades, he goes in silences you, spins for a bit, by the time the silence has worn off, he's spinning off to safety with his free damage reduction, and out of range of your melee fighter abilities. And he has no mana for some reason? ____________________ Now, despite this post I'm not a Garen hater. Im known for hating Yasuo and Zed. _(But hating those who is so common its basically a meme.)_ But I have no grudge against Garen, one of my good friends plays Garen as her main top laner. So I see him a lot in game _(often on my team)_. But he is just too good at too may things, and I don't think it is particularly healthy for the game. And i wanted to take the opportunity of the VS event to point out that Garen might just be a problem. He's supposed to be the training wheels champ :P teaching new players how to play, he shouldn't have this much unnecessary power still going for him. What do you all think? _____________________ #**TL;DR:** Garen is a tank with 1000 damage per second for 3 seconds every 5 seconds. He probably does more damage than you, and is almost certainly way tanker. To kill him you have to take away all 4000+ of his health, and get past his damage reduction, and this is assuming he hasn't sped away with his 79% tenacity and slow removal movement speed buff. For him to kill you, he just needs to get you to just under half HP _(maybe like 1000? with probably very little armour and MR to go through)_, even for those of us who dropped maths as soon as we could, that equation is clearly one sided. Did I mention, he's a tank? Don't worry though, the way to beat him is to 'kite' him. Good luck doing that as your standard melee top laner. I think Garen has been a problem for a while, and with the VS event on strong, maybe its the time to talk about it. _(the full post is far less bias, and more mathematical than the TLDR, with less flair for the dramatic)_ {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}}
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