: I dont think you've quite grasped the points I was making. Why I used Nami in an extreme example, was not to show an even comparison, but to show that as soon as I mentioned it, everyone thought _"Ewww why would you even think to play Nami anything other than squishy support?..."_ _(and you demonstrated that wonderfully, thank you)_. The point was: That if you had the instant reaction of "Ewww" when a champ is playing something they weren't intended for, why is it okay for Sion to do the same? _____________________ Yes many champs have found a niche elsewhere, such as Graves Jungle, or Brand Support. however this new niche usually comes at the price of their intended purpose. I.e. You don't see Graves ADC anymore, and like you said with Naught, he is now played predominately Support or Top, NOT Jungle anymore. And thats fine when that kind of change happens, but when Graves is still top-tier ADC as well as a really good jungler, thats when things get unbalanced. _____________________ Again with Yasuo, you've completely missed the point entirely. The whole point of a comparison is to point out the differences in two things. Why would I compare someone exactly like Sion to Sion? Im trying to show that what Sion does isn't healthy, so why would I compare it to someone that does exactly the same thing? The point here, is that it wouldn't seem right for Yasuo, a high mobility hyper carry, to build in different ways, does it? So if other champions have to be restricted to certain play styles, why should Sion be able to do whatever he wants? ______________________ Counter-picking isn't just about lane counters you know. The ADC might see the enemy pick Sion and think _"Ok I need someone who can deal with tanks."_ So they pick Kog'Maw, and proceed to get annihilated by the bursty full AP Sion. Mid lane might think, _"Ok they picked Sion, ill pick someone who can easily take out burst champs."_ and then find themselves completely useless against full tank Sion. Even your own team might pick wrong because of it. You might pick Sion, and the jungler thinks _"Ok Sweet we have a tank, I can go Fiddlesticks then."_ and now your team has too much AP and no tank. The game needs a certain degree of clarity, if you see a leona getting picked, you have a rough idea of what to expect and can start to make plans for that. If your champ can go one of any 3 completely different play styles, it offers nothing but confusion. You can't press tab to check items until you get into game, and by than you've already chosen your champ, and unlike Sion your champ cant be built in a number of different ways. Also you can change builds during the game. Say you're Sion jungle, VS a Shaco, you're building full AD so you can fight Shaco when you meet in the jungle, and so you have some sick damage when you gank lanes _(cos in early game tanks are kinda useless, so why wouldn't you build full AD)_. Then when it gets into late game, Shaco _(either AP or AD)_ has fallen off, and isn't very useful anymore, and you just sell all your AD Items and suddenly you're a brick wall no one can touch _(and tanks are OP AF late game)_. Shaco doesn't have the option of suddenly switching builds. He made the decision to pick an early game champ and tried to snowball, and it didn't work and now he has to live with that. He took a risk picking his champ, and it didn't pay off. Why should Sion not have to take risks the same way? _________________________ Im not comparing LB's kit to Sions kit.... I'm saying, some champs HAVE to be built and play a certain way, or else they just don't exist. So if you have champs that can build in any number of ways and still be effective, why would you pick champs that are railroaded into one playstyle? Therefore, in the interest of fairness, if you pick a tank, you should be expected to have to build somewhat healthily, and if you pick a carry, you should be expected to build some form of damage. Its not fair to build attack-speed crit Shen and be just as effective as an ADC, likewise its not fair to Kalista to build full tank and be just as effective as Leona. So why is it fair that you pick a tank like Sion, and then have a crazy amount of AP burst? Uhhhhhhh what? I never compared anything to AP mid lane mage Kindred? Did you even read it? OP said (and I'm paraphrasing): _"I like Sion, but I don't like him being a tank, because I like playing damage."_ and I said (and I'm paraphrasing): _"I like Kindred, but I would prefer that she was an AP Mage, instead of an ADC jungler, because I'm a mid laner, and Its annoying that I have to play Jungle to play one of my favourite champs."_ Absolutely nothing I said even remotely suggests that you can or should play Kindred AP in mid lane.... And I certainly wasn't comparing its effectiveness with Sion's... __________________________ Im not wrong about Sion being a tank pre-rework, he has always been a tank. Yes he has AP scalings _(but so does Ashe)_. People built him AP the same way they built Ezreal and Kog AP. It was pretty strong in a few select circumstances, but it was hardly the 'meta playstyle'. It was more akin to your example of some Korean streamer one-tricking it up to diamond. He was never a reliable AP champ the same way Vlad or Ryze were. Yes if you played 100 games, you might do really well in 20 of them, does that make him not a tank? No. ___________________________ Yes the hulk is also Bruce Banner. Yes he is intelligent, _(most superheros are, Batman has a higher IQ than Iron Man. 'Genius' is more often than not, a tab they slap on any superhero without powers to make them seem less inferior to the powered ones.)_ but you'll notice that Einstein isn't in the Avengers, neither is Stephen Hawking. And Bruce Banner wouldn't be either if he wasn't a giant green monster that can put gods on their backs. Yea he wears Iron-mans suit in infinity war, _(so technically isn't that just Tony Stark carrying his sorry ass?)_ Despite being a Genius he still couldn't operate the suit very well, and that STILL managed to be his most useful moment in the whole film. Not to mention his IQ is partially what caused the problem of Ultron in the first place. So if bruce banner is AP sion, it doesn't seem like a very strong case to me. Yes he has his useful moments, but as shown by Thor in Ragnarok, and the avengers in Infinity War, his team _(just like in league)_ really want him to stop farting around with Rabadons Deathcap and just turn into the Hulk.
My initial thought wasn't "Ewww why would you even think to play Nami anything other than squishy support?...". my thought was why is he comparing this to Sion as if this its some smoking gun? Because you're right, it is an extreme "example". You also say that i, "demonstrated that wonderfully, thank you." but that just straight up wasn't my reaction at all. There is a colossal difference between playing nami as a mid lane mage (a lane/position she could arguably fill), and playing "AP attack speed Crit Nami jungle!", and if someone aporached me saying "hey im gonna play nami mid lane", i'd say "yeah okay give it a shot". It seems that your overall aversion to Sion having these other play styles is that it makes counter picking harder, both for the ally and enemy teams. To which my response is as long as you're straight up and honest with your team about how you intend to build (which i make sure to do) then there's no issue in terms of ally team picks. And in terms of enemy teams i think there should be more "huh where do you think hes playing that", im always happy to see new and interesting picks that challenge what i think of a champion. i brought up shyvana in my rebutle because about a day before the newest patch dropped i saw someone playing full AP Shyvana and doing well with it, he was practiced on this niche pick and it showed. i think there should be more variety in where people take things and how they build them because to me, solo queue is just stale. The same or similar pool, of 20 champions per patch played the same way every game. This is what made me fall in love with this game, and 3 years ago i found what was seemingly the last creatively free champion left. i mained him and ive been playing the shit outta him ever since.
LAKIGR (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Kosmo,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=YlunFn2E,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-05-16T15:40:55.568+0000) > > AP attack speed crit nami jg is hardly a fair comparison, if u can find a community that regularly builds that and does well then ill eat my words. you're trying to compare AP/AD Sion to a purposefully silly sounding build thats never played seriously by anyone to try and lend credence to your argument. > its not like champions can't find new niches and become great at something else. shyvana for example was designed ass a top laner, naut was designed as a jungler and hes played predominantly as a support/top laner, zeds initial design was to be a jungler. Hell this very patch riot encouraged people to start playing AP Shyvana with some buffs to her AP scalings. > > "How would you like it if Yasuo could just switch and become AP or suddenly turn himself into a tank? It'd kinda screw with your build and game-perception huh?" > - you make it sound like sions can just SUDDENLY BE AP/AD/tank, checking what people are building is pretty easy TAB. > Honestly a super weird comparison, a high mobility hyper carry with one shitty AP scaling and an emphasis on auto attacks, and Sion an immobile skill shot reliant caster with 2 AD scalings and 2 AP scaleings. > > " How are you supposed to counter pick that?" > -The same counters exist for sion no matter what he builds because all of his builds are skill shot heavy, I.E. champions with either high mobility or quick cc to dodge abilities, interrupt his q's and shatter his w shield. > > you then go onto compare Sion to LB a ranged super high mobility champion with AP scaleing on every ability. > and then you try to compare it to AP mid lane mage kindred. a champion with no AP scaleings at all. > It seems that your whole argument is, "no one can play these champions in a way riot didn't intend, why should Sion be able to?" (all champions of which hold no resemblance to Sion's kit). > > The ability to choose ad/ap/tank on Sion has never been to strong. Also your wrong about Sion always having been a tank pre and post rework. Post rework Sion was famously a champion that could build either a AP/AD, and it definitely shows in how they reworked him, keeping 2 AP abilities and 2 AD. If Riot had really wanted to make him a pure tank/fighter and nothing else, they would have removed these scaleings during the rework. > > we aren't talking about some build that 1 Korean player used to get to diamond and gets covered by LoLhound or something. These are ways of playing sion that are implemented by tens of thousands of players across the world. Most noteworthy of which being lol celebrities that play Sion full AD/AP like Imaqtipie and Tilterella. > > > > > > Also you compare Sion to the hulk for the purposes of fitting into a team, but the hulk is also Bruce Banner, a super genius who in Infinity war WEARS IRONMANS SUIT. He literally does tony's job and no one complains because he does it differently, just like Sion. > > P.S. stormraiders gave slow resistance as well. Ok here’s a better example for you then. Tank ekko some people loved playing tank ekko but it was unhealthy as fuck for the people vsing it. It did insane damage with great sticking power and if you ever came close to killing him he would just ult and regain all of his lost hp.
Tank Ekko is a better example, but not a good one. Ekko is another high mobility assassin with all AP scaleings, that over the course of a patch people discovered that they can build tank and preform INSANELY well. Neither of Sion's AP/AD builds have EVER been nearly as powerful as tank Ekko top, and when riot realized their mistake took careful steps to nerf the play style that was to strong I.E. tank Ekko instead of nerfing Ekko as a whole. In fact the only similarities between Ekko and Sion are that of a champion that had multiple playstyles, 1 of which was overpowered. where they continue to differ is that riot carefully nerfed tank Ekko so that his other play styles wouldn't have to suffer. I don't think im asking for a lot, all im asking for is for riot to be nerfing his tank builds while avoiding gutting his other more enjoyable builds.
: #**Well I want to play AP attack speed Crit Nami jungle!** **It's not fair that I should be railroaded into playing support with a champ intended to be a support!!** Why shouldn't it be viable to play Nami how I want?! I want to get pentakills with Nami! Its not fair!!!!!!! I don't bother building her support, she should just be a damage champ!!! da balance team don't know shit about how nami should be played!! {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} You see how It sounds stupid when we think of playing Nami in other playstyles. So why is it so stupid that Sion should be played the way he was intended too? Sion is a tank, he was a tank before his rework, and he's still a tank today. Admittedly a fighter/tank, but still unmistakably a tank _(you can tell by all the max HP scalings, and infinite permanent HP stacks)_. Thats just the way it is, allowing him the choice and easy adaptability to be either Tank **OR** AP **OR** AD is too strong for a champ who was originally intended as a meat-shield with tons of CC. How would you like it if Yasuo could just switch and become AP or suddenly turn himself into a tank? It'd kinda screw with your build and game-perception huh? How are you supposed to counter pick that? Champs have a purpose that they were originally designed for, most champs have some degree of variation _(I.e Glass cannon Karthus or sustained DPS Karthus.)_, but for one champ to have the choice between being full AP, full AD or full Tank is too much. It provides too much safety for bad picking decisions. Why would you pick a champ like LB who can only do one thing, and build one way, when you can just pick Sion and build however the f*ck you want whenever the mood suits, and perform just as well? Hardly fair to LB's team. I'm sorry the champ you like happens to be a Tank, I really am. But he was originally designed as a Tank/fighter, not an AP nuke champ. I happen to like Kindred, very much so, I'm annoyed she isn't an AP mid lane mage. But thats just the way it is. ______________ Having different champs with different jobs makes the game interesting, not the other way around. If any champ could just build however they wanted, why even bother having multiple champs? Notice how the Justice league and Avengers are filled with a variety of different superheroes? It's cos a team of just Superman or just Dr Strange wouldn't be that interesting to watch. Sion just happens to be the Hulk in this situation, he's a huge buff thing thats hard to kill and does some hefty damage while soaking up aggro. He cant be Batman and Green Lantern as well. _**P.S. I like Phase Rush.**_ _Do you know how strong slows are these days?_
AP attack speed crit nami jg is hardly a fair comparison, if u can find a community that regularly builds that and does well then ill eat my words. you're trying to compare AP/AD Sion to a purposefully silly sounding build thats never played seriously by anyone to try and lend credence to your argument. its not like champions can't find new niches and become great at something else. shyvana for example was designed ass a top laner, naut was designed as a jungler and hes played predominantly as a support/top laner, zeds initial design was to be a jungler. Hell this very patch riot encouraged people to start playing AP Shyvana with some buffs to her AP scalings. "How would you like it if Yasuo could just switch and become AP or suddenly turn himself into a tank? It'd kinda screw with your build and game-perception huh?" - you make it sound like sions can just SUDDENLY BE AP/AD/tank, checking what people are building is pretty easy TAB. Honestly a super weird comparison, a high mobility hyper carry with one shitty AP scaling and an emphasis on auto attacks, and Sion an immobile skill shot reliant caster with 2 AD scalings and 2 AP scaleings. " How are you supposed to counter pick that?" -The same counters exist for sion no matter what he builds because all of his builds are skill shot heavy, I.E. champions with either high mobility or quick cc to dodge abilities, interrupt his q's and shatter his w shield. you then go onto compare Sion to LB a ranged super high mobility champion with AP scaleing on every ability. and then you try to compare it to AP mid lane mage kindred. a champion with no AP scaleings at all. It seems that your whole argument is, "no one can play these champions in a way riot didn't intend, why should Sion be able to?" (all champions of which hold no resemblance to Sion's kit). The ability to choose ad/ap/tank on Sion has never been to strong. Also your wrong about Sion always having been a tank pre and post rework. Post rework Sion was famously a champion that could build either a AP/AD, and it definitely shows in how they reworked him, keeping 2 AP abilities and 2 AD. If Riot had really wanted to make him a pure tank/fighter and nothing else, they would have removed these scaleings during the rework. we aren't talking about some build that 1 Korean player used to get to diamond and gets covered by LoLhound or something. These are ways of playing sion that are implemented by tens of thousands of players across the world. Most noteworthy of which being lol celebrities that play Sion full AD/AP like Imaqtipie and Tilterella. Also you compare Sion to the hulk for the purposes of fitting into a team, but the hulk is also Bruce Banner, a super genius who in Infinity war WEARS IRONMANS SUIT. He literally does tony's job and no one complains because he does it differently, just like Sion. P.S. stormraiders gave slow resistance as well.
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Kosmo

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