LAKIGR (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Sesshomaru,realm=OCE,application-id=Ntey9fRZ,discussion-id=xdgi2rz4,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-20T13:50:21.190+0000) > > The only way to cancel Lux's ult is for her to die during the cast, and it definitely goes on cool down. > > Im sorry if you dont like the examples, but there aren't many other single targeted execute-esq ults around. > > Also mobility and CC have nothing to do with anything, this is a basic principle of how the game functions, having CC doesnt mean the logic of the game should work any different. > Most champions, once you press the button, thats it, your ability is used, even if you die before any animation has happened at all. _(A couple of times as Sol I've press R, died in the same split-second, absolutely no sound effect or animation has played, and my R goes on full cooldown.)_ > > Unless specifically stated otherwise (like Caitlin's R), once an ability is pressed, that should be it, no exceptions. > > If they put in Darius' tooltip _"Refunds full cool down if animation is not completed"_ and explain their reasoning, then ill accept it. But unless it is a deliberate move like Cait's, I will have none of it. I mean if you want single champ execute abilities you picked the worst champs. Veigar ult gains for damage the less hp his target has. Syndra ult gains bonus damage based on the balls she has spawned. And brand ult can apply blaze which is his passive not his ult. if you want single target execute champs who where better off picking cho’gath, garen or urgot. Basically it’s like this Darius ult jump is purely for cosmetic so if he didnt have that jump the skill would be instant and it would have hit u anyway and that’s why it doesn’t go on cd
Yes, I am well aware of how all of their ults function. Its not about being an 'execute' necessarily, its about being an ability that functions a similar way. all the ults i mentioned function in the same way in the sense that they are all single target moves used in similar situations to Darius' ult, _(i.e most of the time they are used for getting the kill. not for engages etc etc.)_, they all have a single damage instance preluded by a cast animation. I could have mentioned Garen and Cho'gath, however I don't know wether their ults reset in the same way as Darius' does. And I'm not going to make a statement using them to back my point up if I don't know if they even function the same way. Do you know? Urgots's ult is completely different, it follows none of the same rules as Darius', I don't know why its even relevant? Darius's jump does not contribute to the damage of his ult its true. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have a purpose. Its a visual indicator that lets other players see what is going on during a fight _(if he didn't jump and you just died randomly in a spurt of blood in the middle of a team fight as soon as he clicked on you, you'd find it a little confusing.)_. So its purpose is to give visual indication of his action, and the action is: He has pressed R. If we are talking purely about animations; Aurelion Sol's ults, he has a windup animation where he rears back his head and gets ready to spout fire. If he dies before he shoots, his ult still goes on cool down. So having an visual animation before the ability does damage, does not mean the ability has not been used.
: I'm not gonna get too involved in this, because I've beaten and lost to enough Darius..es that I see both sides, but also don't pretend to be a qualified balance expert, or even really hobbyist. I would suggest considering player skill as a factor however. Your cake metaphor though, could easily argue against you. It could be a shit recipe that's always possible, and the end result will always turn out shit, but realistically nobody is going to post a crap recipe online and see it sticking around anywhere for very long (and same goes for guides). More likely that recipe does in fact result in that beautiful cake, but a step or two (or 7) has been missed (by recipe or by user) somewhere along the way. Perhaps the recipe assumes you know x thing to complete step 7, but you don't so you misinterpret it. Perhaps it told you to bang the cake mix on the counter at step 9 and you thought that was probably unnecessary and didn't do it because of the noise, when realistically for some cakes it's essential. Perhaps the recipe just said flour but really meant self raising flour and you don't know enough about cakes to notice the error. Perhaps in the end, it does just come down to Darius being better at making an easier cake. Your more complex cake (higher skill cap champs) might have tasted better if you made it perfectly, or perhaps your audience didn't like chocolate (counter picks) and that's largely why he won. Certain players are just better than you. I consider myself a pretty good support for my tier, but I know when I'm beat. More importantly because it's my main role and usually my main champions I know *why* I'm beat as well. More often than not, the enemy is just better. Consider for a moment that you play mid, and largely immobile mids as well. You are at a disadvantage, both in in depth knowledge because you don't play Darius or top lane, and in champion because Darius excels against non mobiles and struggles against the opposite. Consider that when people say kite him, they are typically speaking from an ADC (+ support) or team standpoint. If you're consistently going into games against a Darius as champions like Zoe or Aurelion with very little mobility and relatively little CC of course you are going to be a target. The rest comes down to teamwork, positioning and vision.
I understand what you're saying completely, and I agree. I always take my own (and others) skill into consideration. Its the first thing I think whenever I die. i.e. I would never come crying to the boards because I lost a single game _(or even several games)_ against a certain champion. That could very well be because I'm fighting people that are just simply better than me, _(its always a 50/50 chance)_. I only come here to make a statement when I encounter the same issue consistently. ________________________ It could very well be that I have sub-par understanding of Darius and his mechanics, and so naturally my cake will turn out worse than someone with more experience with/against him. However considering I am far from the only player who has consistent troubles with Darius, I think that it is somewhat more likely that the champ itself has aspects that are too strong. Rather than every Darius I happen to see, just so happens to be a better player than me and my whole team. and its not like Darius is a complete mystery to me just because I main mid. Ive been playing the game for years and years, and have played as/with/against Darius enough to have a pretty damn solid grasp of what he can and cant do. So its not like I'm playing blind into him. But knowing he has triple my HP and pretty much the same damage output, hardly makes it any easier. But me fighting Darius isn't the problem, Im well aware that most mages are countered by fighters and assassins, so when I struggle against them, it doesn't bother me too much. Its when I see fighters like Darius or assassins like Zed still being a problem for the rest of the team even after killing me. Thats when I smell a rat. As someone like Swain or Azir, I can usually fend Darius off long enough in a 1v1 situation to gain the upper hand. But the game isn't a 1v1. and Darius is very strong in a team-fight. 1. Because he has lots of damage, that is also AoE/Multi-target. 2. He is hugely tanky, and heals basically half of his HP back with every Q, so you need multiple people and significant time in order to kill him. 3. The weakness everyone blabs about _(being able to kite him)_ is rendered useless, because they ADC _(and most others)_ are focusing on trying to kill the fed Vayne and Yasuo. Not on kiting the tank. ________________ And of course I know that when people talk about kiting him, they are referring to the ADC. But that in itself isn't very strong counterplay _(only 1/5th of the team can actually exploit it)_. And even then, maybe champs like Vayne or Ezreal could manage it. But id pay good money to see your everyday Kog'Maw kite a Darius with a hard-on for him. Even if 'kiting' is referring to multiple people (like ADC + Support) thats BS counterplay: "_Yea you can counter him, but only if you have a bunch of people, against just his one person."_ What I would give for Sol's main counterplay to be: _"You just have to 3v1 him."_ To kite someone, you have to play perfectly, for a decent length of time. All Darius needs to do is catch up to you once. Once. and youre gone. Its hardly counterplay ,when to counter the counterplay is easier than the counterplay itself. _____________________________ **So really, Darius' counterplay is:** If youre not the ADC don't even try, and if you happen to be lucky and be the 1/5 of the team that is the ADC, and also happen to be one with lots of mobility. You just have to play perfectly for a length of time to kite him, while everyone else on the other team is also trying to kill you too, all while not being hit once by Darius. #Compare that 'weakness' to _**actual**_ counterplay like Sol's Stars, Kindred's marks, or Jhin's reload time, and it begins to look pretty suspect. But this is getting a little off topic, the issue I was pointing out was not that Darius is strong, its that abilities _(wether Darius' or not)_ shouldn't reset just because someone else out-played it. Darius is only part of the conversation because the example I used happened to be of him. _Apologies, you said you didn't want to get too involved, but like usual I get carried away and write a lot xD_
: I get what you're saying. His R is largely unavoidable, and there's no punishment for misusing it. Trust me, he NEEDs that to be the case. Have you ever seen a late-game Darius? You just point and laugh. You used Veigar's R as a counter example. Let me tell you why Darius needs a cannot-be-whiffed ultimate. And why there needs to be a significant risk associated with Veigar's R. Darius is a lane bully, and he has this enormous early power spike, one or two items in. Like, absurd to the point where he can - if slightly fed - 1v2 easily, 1v3 viably, 1v4 possibly, and even 1v5 is improbable, not impossible. Darius' objective is draw an inordinate number of enemy Champs to deal with his arse, or group to shit on the enemy to take everything off the map and end it relatively early. If the game goes on, Darius is a weak-arse piece of shit that gets 1v1'ed by the enemy ADC. He, believe it or not, NEEDS that un-whiffable R, along with its rests, to remain a viable Champion. Veigar, however, has a kit that enables 3/4 abilities to scale without end, and allows his W and R reach one-shot-anything heights. It needs to be whiffable. Imagine it being like Darius'. You walk up to Anivia, press R. She Zhonya's. Your R doesn't go on cooldown. You wait. Press R. KFC. It'd be game-breaking.
This post was intended not to be so focused on Darius specifically, but rather on the clarity of what you expect when you outplay something. _e.g. if I see an ability coming at me, if I Zhonyas to block it, I expect not to see the same ability immediately fly at me again. Whats the point of even having invulnerability then? _ All abilities should follow the same base logic without fail unless they have a specifically stated exception to that logic _(e.g. Vayne's silver bolts not stacking on Runaans, or Caitlins' ult having a reduced CD if the target disappears before she shoots.)_ Otherwise everything should follow the same rules. Either Everyone's ult resets if it gets Zhonyased, or no one's does. _________________ Also, Ive seen too many Darius' fed or otherwise absolutely steamroll late-game to believe that he is weak enough to be laughable. He's one of those champs who gets too tanky for a damage dealer, and has too much damage for a tank. That is always a strong combo. Like Nasus, yes he isn't a problem to take down, the thing is, it takes long enough to take him down that the enemy Vayne has already taken out the majority of the team. and like Nasus, you cant just leave him to do his own thing, because then he's the one taking out your whole team. He has a ranged pull, 2 slows, one of them a brutal as fuck, phage, ghost, and sometimes even phase rush. Not to mention one of the highest base movement speeds in the game. **Kite that shit my ass.** It's like following a cookbook recipe, the guide _says_ its easy and shows a lovely picture of a cake, but in reality, it looks like a cow-pat, and tastes just as bad, even though you followed all the steps. Personally I don't care wether its Veigar, or Darius, or fricken Udyr for that matter, as soon as you press the button, that ability is used. Full stop. If you happen to use it wrong, or someone outplays it, tough luck, you needed to play better. ________________ I just hate the direction this game keeps going. I miss the days before juggernauts, when there was _**Tank**_ at one end of the scale, and _**Damage**_ at the other. and all champs fell somewhere in-between. the tanker they were, inversely the less damage they had, the more damage they had, the easier they were to kill. It was all proportionate. That scale no longer exists. :/ _[Sigh]_
LAKIGR (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Sesshomaru,realm=OCE,application-id=Ntey9fRZ,discussion-id=xdgi2rz4,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-05-20T10:09:48.222+0000) > > To me that just seems morally wrong. > Once you press the button _(doesn't matter what champ you are)_, you should have committed to using that ability. > Just because you made a poor judgement call and ulted too late, doesn't mean you should get any special treatment. > > Veigar cant suck his ult back into his body if the target disappears before it hits. Neither can Brand or Syndra. > If you ult wrong, thats on you, and you should have to deal with the consequences. > > It annoys me that already very powerful champs like Darius get this much wiggle room, when other much more disadvantaged champs don't. Ok going to be honest your comparisons suck. Your comparing apples to oranges. Darius is a champ that lacks 0 mobility and 0 hard cc outside of his fairly simple to dodge grab. Making it super easy to kite him. Also it’s not that he ulted wrong it’s that the animation never finished. The same thing happens to lux if you use her ult and it gets canceled it doesn’t go on cd. If the animation doesn’t finish the game goes oh your ult can’t be used in this instance for x reason so there for it’s canceled and it doesn’t go on cd
The only way to cancel Lux's ult is for her to die during the cast, and it definitely goes on cool down. Im sorry if you dont like the examples, but there aren't many other single targeted execute-esq ults around. Also mobility and CC have nothing to do with anything, this is a basic principle of how the game functions, having CC doesnt mean the logic of the game should work any different. Most champions, once you press the button, thats it, your ability is used, even if you die before any animation has happened at all. _(A couple of times as Sol I've press R, died in the same split-second, absolutely no sound effect or animation has played, and my R goes on full cooldown.)_ Unless specifically stated otherwise (like Caitlin's R), once an ability is pressed, that should be it, no exceptions. If they put in Darius' tooltip _"Refunds full cool down if animation is not completed"_ and explain their reasoning, then ill accept it. But unless it is a deliberate move like Cait's, I will have none of it.
LAKIGR (OCE)
: It’s simply because the jump is just a wind up animation, if the target becomes untargetable then the ability never goes off hence why he can keep ulting
To me that just seems morally wrong. Once you press the button _(doesn't matter what champ you are)_, you should have committed to using that ability. Just because you made a poor judgement call and ulted too late, doesn't mean you should get any special treatment. Veigar cant suck his ult back into his body if the target disappears before it hits. Neither can Brand or Syndra. If you ult wrong, thats on you, and you should have to deal with the consequences. It annoys me that already very powerful champs like Darius get this much wiggle room, when other much more disadvantaged champs don't.
: Dude, you're too engrossed in thinking that Zhonya's and Vlad's W is indeed a counter to Darius' R. It's as simple as: it's not. Something like Fiora's W is an outplay device for Darius' R.
> [{quoted}](name=kaboomblah,realm=OCE,application-id=Ntey9fRZ,discussion-id=xdgi2rz4,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-05-20T07:35:59.603+0000) > > It's as simple as: it's not. _Obviously_.... My point is that it **should** be. Other champs, once you press the button, you've committed to using your ability, for better or worse. I don't see any feasible reason why Darius should have any special treatment? Should Veigar's ult reset if you Zhonyas before it hits you? And I don't buy the _"It has counterplay. You just have to be the one champ in the game with the single ability that blocks it."_ speal _(for any champ, not just Darius)_. One champion, i.e. Fiora, with one of her abilities i.e. W, does not provide significant enough counterplay to justify being a champ's weakness. Skillshots are countered by mobility. Mobility is countered by AoE. AoE is countered by range. Range is countered by Mobility. Tank is countered by sustained damage. Sustained damage is countered by burst. Burst is countered by tank. These things are general, not champ specific. So as a general rule, champions with higher mobility are a rough counter for every champ that relies on skill shots. So if Ezreal is trying to slap you with his Q, even champs that dont have dashes can still move and weave about. That is counterplay. Specific champs with specific abilities _(e.g. Fiora's W)_ that nullify another specific champion's ability (e.g Darius' R), is counter-picking, not really counterplay. No matter how many movement speed items you buy, you cant move and weave out of Darius' R, therefore there should be another general method to avoid it _(no ability should be unavoidable and unblockable, therefore must have a counter)_. And one would assume that becoming invulnerable the second before it slams into your face, would suffice.
Rioter Comments
: I just realised... changing the jg items so you cant get a support item... Increased cooldown on trinkets.... these are even more Lee Sin nerfs... wow
About damn time, I say! He's been in the spotlight since when, season 2?
Kosmo (OCE)
: Tank Ekko is a better example, but not a good one. Ekko is another high mobility assassin with all AP scaleings, that over the course of a patch people discovered that they can build tank and preform INSANELY well. Neither of Sion's AP/AD builds have EVER been nearly as powerful as tank Ekko top, and when riot realized their mistake took careful steps to nerf the play style that was to strong I.E. tank Ekko instead of nerfing Ekko as a whole. In fact the only similarities between Ekko and Sion are that of a champion that had multiple playstyles, 1 of which was overpowered. where they continue to differ is that riot carefully nerfed tank Ekko so that his other play styles wouldn't have to suffer. I don't think im asking for a lot, all im asking for is for riot to be nerfing his tank builds while avoiding gutting his other more enjoyable builds.
You're taking this wayyy too literally. It has nothing to do with who is mobile and who has AP scalings. Its about champions having different pathways regardless of what their kits entail. The overall point is that in the interest of clarity and fair play, champs should have reasonably set (with some degree of variation of course) play styles. So when you see the enemy pick a champion, you have a reasonably fair idea of what to expect. The only reason Sion even has AP scalings is because it was a meme to build Sion AP pre-rework. > all im asking for is for riot to be nerfing his tank builds while avoiding gutting his other more enjoyable builds. What? _"I just want Riot to nerf the thing he is supposed to be doing, and was designed for. So he can do the things he wasn't intended for!"_ 'I really want Riot to nerf AD Ezreal, so that I can be more effective as AP Ezreal......' ____________ Why not just gut his AP and AD scalings, so that he can be a tank without being a problem? That makes more sense to me, seeming he is supposed to be a tank.
Kosmo (OCE)
: AP attack speed crit nami jg is hardly a fair comparison, if u can find a community that regularly builds that and does well then ill eat my words. you're trying to compare AP/AD Sion to a purposefully silly sounding build thats never played seriously by anyone to try and lend credence to your argument. its not like champions can't find new niches and become great at something else. shyvana for example was designed ass a top laner, naut was designed as a jungler and hes played predominantly as a support/top laner, zeds initial design was to be a jungler. Hell this very patch riot encouraged people to start playing AP Shyvana with some buffs to her AP scalings. "How would you like it if Yasuo could just switch and become AP or suddenly turn himself into a tank? It'd kinda screw with your build and game-perception huh?" - you make it sound like sions can just SUDDENLY BE AP/AD/tank, checking what people are building is pretty easy TAB. Honestly a super weird comparison, a high mobility hyper carry with one shitty AP scaling and an emphasis on auto attacks, and Sion an immobile skill shot reliant caster with 2 AD scalings and 2 AP scaleings. " How are you supposed to counter pick that?" -The same counters exist for sion no matter what he builds because all of his builds are skill shot heavy, I.E. champions with either high mobility or quick cc to dodge abilities, interrupt his q's and shatter his w shield. you then go onto compare Sion to LB a ranged super high mobility champion with AP scaleing on every ability. and then you try to compare it to AP mid lane mage kindred. a champion with no AP scaleings at all. It seems that your whole argument is, "no one can play these champions in a way riot didn't intend, why should Sion be able to?" (all champions of which hold no resemblance to Sion's kit). The ability to choose ad/ap/tank on Sion has never been to strong. Also your wrong about Sion always having been a tank pre and post rework. Post rework Sion was famously a champion that could build either a AP/AD, and it definitely shows in how they reworked him, keeping 2 AP abilities and 2 AD. If Riot had really wanted to make him a pure tank/fighter and nothing else, they would have removed these scaleings during the rework. we aren't talking about some build that 1 Korean player used to get to diamond and gets covered by LoLhound or something. These are ways of playing sion that are implemented by tens of thousands of players across the world. Most noteworthy of which being lol celebrities that play Sion full AD/AP like Imaqtipie and Tilterella. Also you compare Sion to the hulk for the purposes of fitting into a team, but the hulk is also Bruce Banner, a super genius who in Infinity war WEARS IRONMANS SUIT. He literally does tony's job and no one complains because he does it differently, just like Sion. P.S. stormraiders gave slow resistance as well.
I dont think you've quite grasped the points I was making. Why I used Nami in an extreme example, was not to show an even comparison, but to show that as soon as I mentioned it, everyone thought _"Ewww why would you even think to play Nami anything other than squishy support?..."_ _(and you demonstrated that wonderfully, thank you)_. The point was: That if you had the instant reaction of "Ewww" when a champ is playing something they weren't intended for, why is it okay for Sion to do the same? _____________________ Yes many champs have found a niche elsewhere, such as Graves Jungle, or Brand Support. however this new niche usually comes at the price of their intended purpose. I.e. You don't see Graves ADC anymore, and like you said with Naught, he is now played predominately Support or Top, NOT Jungle anymore. And thats fine when that kind of change happens, but when Graves is still top-tier ADC as well as a really good jungler, thats when things get unbalanced. _____________________ Again with Yasuo, you've completely missed the point entirely. The whole point of a comparison is to point out the differences in two things. Why would I compare someone exactly like Sion to Sion? Im trying to show that what Sion does isn't healthy, so why would I compare it to someone that does exactly the same thing? The point here, is that it wouldn't seem right for Yasuo, a high mobility hyper carry, to build in different ways, does it? So if other champions have to be restricted to certain play styles, why should Sion be able to do whatever he wants? ______________________ Counter-picking isn't just about lane counters you know. The ADC might see the enemy pick Sion and think _"Ok I need someone who can deal with tanks."_ So they pick Kog'Maw, and proceed to get annihilated by the bursty full AP Sion. Mid lane might think, _"Ok they picked Sion, ill pick someone who can easily take out burst champs."_ and then find themselves completely useless against full tank Sion. Even your own team might pick wrong because of it. You might pick Sion, and the jungler thinks _"Ok Sweet we have a tank, I can go Fiddlesticks then."_ and now your team has too much AP and no tank. The game needs a certain degree of clarity, if you see a leona getting picked, you have a rough idea of what to expect and can start to make plans for that. If your champ can go one of any 3 completely different play styles, it offers nothing but confusion. You can't press tab to check items until you get into game, and by than you've already chosen your champ, and unlike Sion your champ cant be built in a number of different ways. Also you can change builds during the game. Say you're Sion jungle, VS a Shaco, you're building full AD so you can fight Shaco when you meet in the jungle, and so you have some sick damage when you gank lanes _(cos in early game tanks are kinda useless, so why wouldn't you build full AD)_. Then when it gets into late game, Shaco _(either AP or AD)_ has fallen off, and isn't very useful anymore, and you just sell all your AD Items and suddenly you're a brick wall no one can touch _(and tanks are OP AF late game)_. Shaco doesn't have the option of suddenly switching builds. He made the decision to pick an early game champ and tried to snowball, and it didn't work and now he has to live with that. He took a risk picking his champ, and it didn't pay off. Why should Sion not have to take risks the same way? _________________________ Im not comparing LB's kit to Sions kit.... I'm saying, some champs HAVE to be built and play a certain way, or else they just don't exist. So if you have champs that can build in any number of ways and still be effective, why would you pick champs that are railroaded into one playstyle? Therefore, in the interest of fairness, if you pick a tank, you should be expected to have to build somewhat healthily, and if you pick a carry, you should be expected to build some form of damage. Its not fair to build attack-speed crit Shen and be just as effective as an ADC, likewise its not fair to Kalista to build full tank and be just as effective as Leona. So why is it fair that you pick a tank like Sion, and then have a crazy amount of AP burst? Uhhhhhhh what? I never compared anything to AP mid lane mage Kindred? Did you even read it? OP said (and I'm paraphrasing): _"I like Sion, but I don't like him being a tank, because I like playing damage."_ and I said (and I'm paraphrasing): _"I like Kindred, but I would prefer that she was an AP Mage, instead of an ADC jungler, because I'm a mid laner, and Its annoying that I have to play Jungle to play one of my favourite champs."_ Absolutely nothing I said even remotely suggests that you can or should play Kindred AP in mid lane.... And I certainly wasn't comparing its effectiveness with Sion's... __________________________ Im not wrong about Sion being a tank pre-rework, he has always been a tank. Yes he has AP scalings _(but so does Ashe)_. People built him AP the same way they built Ezreal and Kog AP. It was pretty strong in a few select circumstances, but it was hardly the 'meta playstyle'. It was more akin to your example of some Korean streamer one-tricking it up to diamond. He was never a reliable AP champ the same way Vlad or Ryze were. Yes if you played 100 games, you might do really well in 20 of them, does that make him not a tank? No. ___________________________ Yes the hulk is also Bruce Banner. Yes he is intelligent, _(most superheros are, Batman has a higher IQ than Iron Man. 'Genius' is more often than not, a tab they slap on any superhero without powers to make them seem less inferior to the powered ones.)_ but you'll notice that Einstein isn't in the Avengers, neither is Stephen Hawking. And Bruce Banner wouldn't be either if he wasn't a giant green monster that can put gods on their backs. Yea he wears Iron-mans suit in infinity war, _(so technically isn't that just Tony Stark carrying his sorry ass?)_ Despite being a Genius he still couldn't operate the suit very well, and that STILL managed to be his most useful moment in the whole film. Not to mention his IQ is partially what caused the problem of Ultron in the first place. So if bruce banner is AP sion, it doesn't seem like a very strong case to me. Yes he has his useful moments, but as shown by Thor in Ragnarok, and the avengers in Infinity War, his team _(just like in league)_ really want him to stop farting around with Rabadons Deathcap and just turn into the Hulk.
Kosmo (OCE)
: Stop killing ad/ap sion
#**Well I want to play AP attack speed Crit Nami jungle!** **It's not fair that I should be railroaded into playing support with a champ intended to be a support!!** Why shouldn't it be viable to play Nami how I want?! I want to get pentakills with Nami! Its not fair!!!!!!! I don't bother building her support, she should just be a damage champ!!! da balance team don't know shit about how nami should be played!! {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} You see how It sounds stupid when we think of playing Nami in other playstyles. So why is it so stupid that Sion should be played the way he was intended too? Sion is a tank, he was a tank before his rework, and he's still a tank today. Admittedly a fighter/tank, but still unmistakably a tank _(you can tell by all the max HP scalings, and infinite permanent HP stacks)_. Thats just the way it is, allowing him the choice and easy adaptability to be either Tank **OR** AP **OR** AD is too strong for a champ who was originally intended as a meat-shield with tons of CC. How would you like it if Yasuo could just switch and become AP or suddenly turn himself into a tank? It'd kinda screw with your build and game-perception huh? How are you supposed to counter pick that? Champs have a purpose that they were originally designed for, most champs have some degree of variation _(I.e Glass cannon Karthus or sustained DPS Karthus.)_, but for one champ to have the choice between being full AP, full AD or full Tank is too much. It provides too much safety for bad picking decisions. Why would you pick a champ like LB who can only do one thing, and build one way, when you can just pick Sion and build however the f*ck you want whenever the mood suits, and perform just as well? Hardly fair to LB's team. I'm sorry the champ you like happens to be a Tank, I really am. But he was originally designed as a Tank/fighter, not an AP nuke champ. I happen to like Kindred, very much so, I'm annoyed she isn't an AP mid lane mage. But thats just the way it is. ______________ Having different champs with different jobs makes the game interesting, not the other way around. If any champ could just build however they wanted, why even bother having multiple champs? Notice how the Justice league and Avengers are filled with a variety of different superheroes? It's cos a team of just Superman or just Dr Strange wouldn't be that interesting to watch. Sion just happens to be the Hulk in this situation, he's a huge buff thing thats hard to kill and does some hefty damage while soaking up aggro. He cant be Batman and Green Lantern as well. _**P.S. I like Phase Rush.**_ _Do you know how strong slows are these days?_
: Kindred might be reciving an indirect nerf in the upcoming patch.
Yea this was my first thought too. Unfortunately, Kindred's marks are just a bait anyway. They're a neat little mini-game mechanic, but they lead to you getting behind more often than giving you power. If the enemy has even the slightest idea how to play league, it is physically impossible for kindred to reach most of her marks before them, and if they meet in the jungle, kindred loses 90% of the matchups early. Not to mention the CS you miss traipsing all the way across the map to find that its already gone. Kindred is my main jungler, and I used to be religious about getting her marks, but since her update, her marks just feel awful, so I don't bother anymore unless I know 100% that I can get it safely. It's sad :( thematically she's is by far my favourite champion.
QAPLA (OCE)
: Are These Boards Dead?
I must admit they have seemed kinda dead of late. Things seem to get a lot of views _(if the counter on the sides can be believed)_, but no one has the will to respond. Posts used to get like 200 views, but 25 comments. Now most posts break 1k views but have 0 comments. There used to be the 'regulars' that came to the boards all the time and participated in lots of the conversations, as well as a lot of people who participated in a few conversations every now and then, but not often enough to be recognised personalities, and together the community wasn't large but it was certainly lively. Now the majority of posts are ban appeal pleas, and everyone knows those are dead-end posts to begin with. The regulars have given up, and everyone else comes to the boards just to check announcements. I haven't had a good rumble with Talon12 for months... what is this? xD **I think you're right, season 8 has killed everyone's excitement in the game.** For one thing, nothing stays the same long enough anymore for anyone to have an opinion on it anyway. It used to be that a single champ got a slight stat change, and we would have a 50 comment long thread on it that'd stick around for weeks. Now something massive gets changed _(like an entire time pool)_ and everyone just thinks _"Eughh thats a bit shit, but nvm, ill just wait for them to rework it again next month."_ I honestly don't know why they see the need to change the game so much so quickly now. And when they do change things, they never address the problem directly, _"Some ADC's are too strong? Better rework the entire item-pool instead of clipping a few wings here and there."_, "What? Some mages were pokey in lane? What's that? Re-work the entire mana system? Good idea Jeff!". Like I understand they don't want to play whack-a-mole with problem champs. But their attitude atm seems to be _'when one mole pops up, ignore it and use the hammer to smash in and dent all the other holes so no more moles can pop up.'_. Season 8 isn't as bad to play in as the tank meta, but it's killing the game much more effectively.
: Now that one I'm not sure about. As far as I know anything affecting the attacker (like a blind) is calculated at launch (so an auto attack launched before being blinded but hitting after would still hit) but anything affecting the defender (like invulnerability) is calculated at contact (so being un-Zhonya's at launch but Zhonya's at impact would result in no damage). At least that's what I think you're talking about here. As far as I know Kindred's ult (assuming you meet the health requirements) would fall under the second scenario, but from the screenshots it looks like he wasn't actually in it yet. Zoe's health bar doesn't match up with her target-able model in her ult but I'm pretty sure that's intentional. Her bar shifts as soon as she is untargetable going in, not when she becomes targetable coming out. You can see in the first screenshot, her healthbar has shifted but her model is still just barely in the portal. The alternatives are: 1. Do the opposite, at which point we'd be clueless as to the moment Zoe actually becomes untargetable 2. Remove her bar entirely while she is untargetable, at which point it's very easy to lose track of where she is if there's any other effects going on, the screenshots being a very good example of this 3. Have the bar move with her like a Trist W, which would be very hard to track nevermind read, and also misleading because she isn't targetable in that time like Trist is, nor is she a moving target (the target itself is entirely stationary in this time first at point A, then at point B, then back at point A) Without knowing exactly where that 565 damage came from and whether it was before or after the Zoe ult I can't be sure, but to me it looks like he died just under the ult.
This is a very in-depth analysis guys :) I wish there was an easy way to share the replays, so others can watch and go over it frame by frame. There was a lot going on at the time so I'm not 100% sure, but I think there was an auto in flight when I ulted, however because I still have HP when my health bar appears inside the ult, either the auto hit me before I entered and didn't do enough to kill me, OR it hit after I entered, and thats where the 546 damage comes from. Either way, in theory I shouldn't have died from it. On a side note, I have noticed that when Zoe dies at point B in her ult, her dead body still teleports back to point A. Perhaps that has something to do with it _(the way it is coded as being a 'temporary' position or something)_. I dunno. Interesting through.
QAPLA (OCE)
: Kalista in ARAM
I had always thought you could decline the spear just by walking away after the initial offer _(the paralysis is only temporary)_, and not clicking on the spear. But i'm usually on the _other_ end of the oath. And on the odd occasion I play with a Kalista that isn't me, i've never tried to decline it, because it pretty much cuts her power in half _(remember its not just her ult, its her W passives too)_, and I wouldn't want to do that to my ADC.
Rioter Comments
: How do you guys feel about one trick players
To put it _mildly_, i'm not fond of them. They just don't play the game properly. They don't adapt to fit the team-comp, they just pick whoever suits them _(more often than not, the **only** champ they can actually play)_ and expect the team to pick champs around them, so by default, they are not team players. They're already starting the game with the 'im gunna carry this team' attitude, which is all just about them, now I dunno about you, but i don't enjoy playing the game with self-centred guys that don't give a crap about the team. Part of the game is picking and counter picking and strategy, if you're not doing that, you're simply not playing the game as intended. And if youre not playing teh game properly, why should you be playing with the rest of us who are? Plus you have the usual issues of if their champ gets picked/banned by the enemy team, _(which happens a lot, seeming one-tricks usually one-trick champs like Yasuo or Riven or Katarina etc. [like seriously when was the last time you saw a Zilean one trick? or a Nidalee?])_. And when their champ does get banned, they instantly dodge and ruin all the strategic work the rest of the team has done, securing picks and bans. And if they have already dodged too many times recently and HAVE to play, then they can't do shit, and are just a burden. Learn to play multiple champs, like the rest of us. You can play and be _good_ at at _least_ 2-3 champs per position with relative ease. One-tricking is just a shortcut to rank up to an elo where you dont actually belong. _(90% of one-trick would fall out of their ranks in days if their champ was taken away.)_ they don't actually belong at that rank, their game knowledge and skill is not of that level, they're just mechanically very good with one champ. So yea, not fond of them. ^^
: The more updates they do the more the game goes to shit. You stuffing the game up
I think balancing league is a little like driving a big boat or plane. You turn the wheel, and for a brief moment, nothing happens. If you just leave it, after the moment the change will take effect. But the natural instinct when nothing happens is to turn the wheel again, and if you do that, you now turn the vehicle too far! Then you turn the wheel again the other way to correct the mistake, but for a moment, nothing happens, so you turn the wheel harder, and now you go too far the wrong way, and you end up in an endless feedback loop that spirals the vehicle into disaster. League seems to be doing that, they're changing a lot, often. And without the proper intervals to let things settle, things naturally get out of whack, but when they do get out of whack, rather than looking back and thinking "What did we do wrong to cause this", they just change those things as well. Which only compounds the problem. _**E.g.**_ _reverting LB was a big change, but rather than let that settle and see how she performs, they re-vamp all the mage items at the same time. So now when things inevitably go wrong, its much much harder to find out wether the problem was something in LB's new kit, or something to do with the new mage itemisation._ _Or when Zed went through his phase of bing a massive problem (I mean more than usual), rather than just taking Zed's numbers down a few pegs, they reworked the entire armour-pen/lethality system, which took Zed down, and turned every fighter in the game into an assassin!_ This self-destructive cycle can only be kept up for so long before you lose control completely. It does have an expiration date.
Rioter Comments
CNFAAGFKU (OCE)
: Employees for riot
They just built the worlds most popular online game from scratch, and filled it with over 150 unique and interesting characters all with different play styles and skins, champs that mesh almost perfectly together to create a quite well balanced environment for the millions and millions of players that use it every single day of the year. Man.... if only I didn't go to school... now I'm educated and cant do any of that... damn. :(
00shots00 (OCE)
: I do understand the fact that you cant treat every game the same and i've learnt that the hard way XD and before i go on, im with you completely and im not being a dick, and thank you for commenting :) I feel that ive finally noticed why top laners complain a whole lot in lower elo's and its simply because (in my opinion) its very jgler based. Its kinda sad and makes me feel shit to say that huni was right last year. i know camille and every combo she has and even made videos while playing her. i used to main trynd, camille, yorick and kled all together depending on what i felt like the team needed. but everytime id pick camille trynd and yorick id feel the early game sucking because even when im pushed in and getting poked down my jgler would feel that im the losing lane so why help the losing lane? the play style that ive picked up goes like this as kled, win or losing laning phase - trade with other guy as much as i can (damage testing) - kill or be killed until lvl 6 - *hits lvl 6* *backs buys what ever i can* ult down bot to give bot lane a lead - mid game- - focus all outer turrets and convince team to help - me personally focus out of place champs - late game- -end of game- - split push - watching map more than actually trying to cs tbh - watch where back line is positioned and when the fight breaks out ult from the back line -if being held at our tower- - watch for cc cooldowns (important one) - once they have been used ult in and go crazy this has worked 60% of my games but the ones where it doesn't i find my team sort of backs off and hesitates and they just sit there and watch me. a lot of the time being kled i know i have chances at surviving an in and out so ill jump in make them waste like a leona ult and ill back off reset and wait for minor cc to be used then ult in. i dont know its just most the time i feel like ive got to be the one giving a speech to my team mates trying to boost their confidence with the champs they're using XD
I admire your well thought out process! But that too could catalyse the issue. It can be difficult to adapt to the almost innumerable number of variables the game offers, if you're always keeping to the same plan, especially one so specific. In regards to you feeling like the losing lane when playing other champs. I don't think it really matters. If you pick champs like Yorick or Tryndamere, it isn't the lane phase you should be concerned with anyway. Trynd is a mid-late game hyper carry, he's not supposed to be huge force in lane. Just focus on keeping up in farm and not dying, and eventually you'll become the un-killable 1-hit monster he was born to be. Its just a ticking clock, you don't have to do well, you just have to not feed. Similar with Yorick, you don't have to be constantly trading or racking up kills, just keep the pressure on, keep the enemy jungle's attention away from other lanes. Spend the laning phase farming and slowly whittling down their tower. You don't have to come out as 5/1 or anything, and once the enemy leaves you alone in top once the lane has ended, your true job begins. ___________ More often than not, ill lose mid lane tower in my games, not because they've beaten me in lane, but because I've taken first tower in bot 5 minutes ago, and have kept the pressure up in side lanes ever since. With champs like Sol or Taliyah, I pretty much abandon mid lane post-6 whenever possible, and become a second jungler, I often sacrifice my own lane and farm to ensure the other lanes succeed, _(a fed Vayne and Darius is worth a heck of a lot more than a well-farmed Sol)_. Even when playing champs who are oppressive in lane, like Swain, and when I get ahead with them, I often dont stay and win lane, I have 2 options: 1. Stay in lane and keep them down, and get even stronger myself. 2. Leave lane and spread my lead to other lanes. More often than not, I go for option 2. Yes we could have a fed Swain and vs an underfed Lux. But it is way better to have the whole team slightly elevated, than have 1 player quite far ahead. One player can be focused down, or make mistakes. A whole team is less likely to throw. So winning lane isn't the be-all and end-all. ____________ In regards to the jungler ganking _(or not ganking)_ you. You're a confident player, you know your own skill, you know you're not going to feed your ass off even when behind. So do you need the jungler? Isn't it better to have the jungler babysitting other lanes, players who might be less confident, and who now have a lead they wouldn't have had. Think of it like treating everyone as an idiot. Even if you're fed, you cant carry a feeding idiot. But if the idiot is fed, you don't have to carry them, because even if they do make a mistake, they're fed, they have a safety blanket. Rather than gilding your own sturdy armour with gold and gems, work on fixing the weak rusted armour of the guy who's protecting your back. So I would much rather the jungler camp other lanes, because I know even if I'm behind, I'm not going to screw mine up too badly. But I'm not sure they they wont screw theirs up. So id rather they had the help instead of me, just incase. But often your team mates aren't idiots and with a little extra help they become a force to be reckoned with, and you can piggyback on their success.
00shots00 (OCE)
: Lets talk about difference thoughts on how a game is won.
Both Kled and Maokai are very balls-to-the-wall champions. And so while it might suit you and your playstyle for your team to always follow you in, it may not always be the best plan for the team itself. Champions like say, Kha'Zix are built for making picks and taking out the backline and escaping before anyone knows they're there. So is he going to want to charge balls deep into a team fight where everyone knows he's coming? Probably not, because he knows that doing that removes a lot of power from his own kit. Reading your own team is just as important as reading the enemy's. In so many games I have people in my team shouting "we need to group." "We have to teamfight." "Why aren't you grouping f*cking idiots." And I look at the enemy team and they have: Illaoi Sejuani Brand Xayah Rakan And we have something like: Yorick Udyr Kassadin Quinn Morgana In that situation, grouping and team fighting would be the worst thing to do, and the people asking for it are doing it out of habit, not from looking at the teams and assessing the strengths of each team. Even in a 4v5, the enemy team is still likely to win that fight. You might find it's the same with Kled, you might be picking a balls-to-the-Wall champion into an allied team where that playstyle is actually disadvantageous. And your team sees this and doesn't want to go in, but because you play mainly Kled, it's the only playstyle you know and are confident with. Which is why you feel it's always the right course of action. My advice would be to study your own team in champ select before picking your champs. If you have lots of assassins and split pushers, you might want to pick someone who can help them with that, rather than picking a champ that relies on 5v5 teamfights. The reverse is also true, if your team is picking teamfight heavy champs, maybe don't pick a champ that sits and relentlessly pushes top lane for 40 minutes. It seems you've got team fighting champs under wraps, so I would suggest investing some time into other champs that revolve around a different playstyle, like Camille who can make picks easily, or Gangplank who can push lanes into oblivion. So you can adapt your picks for what is required by the team. ------------------------------- Im a mid laner, but Yorick is my go to top laner, and when I play him, If I'm with the team, I'm doing it wrong! I trust my team to push and make picks while I carve my way through towers in outer lanes. But I also have Aatrox who I'm equally confident with, for when the team needs someone to leap headlong into the fray and wreak havoc, or to duel a problem champ and keep him away from the carries long enough for my team to set up their wombos. But all this has to be predicted and done in champ select, that's the hard part. Even when I'm in mid (territory I'm more familiar with) sometimes I won't pick Aurelion Sol because I'm so worried about lane counters, and I miss the fact that a roaming Mage with AoE CC is exactly what our botlane needs to get our Vayne fed. And it's much better to have an under-fed Sol and a fed Vayne, than an under-fed Vayne and a mid laner that goes even with the enemy mid. So it's just a matter of trying to see the patterns between champions and picking accordingly. This is my thought on the situation anyway. Hope it helps
: understandable, but what about the teemo and zoe players?
They aren't shadow ninja/samurai adolescent boy champs. Nor do they have the extremely large and loyal player base who refuse _(or are unable to)_ to play any other champs but them. Teemo is a nuisance granted, but it's more of a meme to hate him than an actual balance issue. He craps on Nasus and a couple of other AA heavy champs, but most champs can take him out fairly easily. Do people still have trouble with Zoe? Really?... I can't even remember the last time I saw a Zoe be a problem in game, or even be banned.
: hi why cant we have draft pick on in the morning
Because otherwise all the Yasuo/Zed players would quit league, and they comprise at least 50% of the population. Riot couldn't let that happen! :P
Gehirn (OCE)
: Yea this was an issue with the timezone setting in the tool we use to set this up. Same problem occurred for early sales and regular sales where the banner was up before the sale started. This has been reported to Central Riot and we'll work to prevent this issue manually for now until the tool can be fixed.
Awesome! Thanks for explaining the issue. I have since purchased the skin. ^^
: Ashe needs a new ability!
  Rioter Comments
: You underestimate the power of OCD, or any other similar compulsion. If you aren't saving them up for anything, then yes absolutely some people will feel "I *really* wish I could get this useless thing out of my loot it clutters it up". Personally I have to use up event tokens for that 15 BE, even though I know they'll expire I have to have that little number on 0 or it just bothers me. It's not really possible to know they don't have another purpose, since when you click on it the drop down tells you all the things you can redeem them for. I'll give you that people may assume that the loot exclusive skins are worth roughly 10 masterwork chests, but you could argue that they are worth less than that. The exclusive skins are mostly 975 tier, the value of which (either in orange essence of in skin shards) you would certainly receive in 10 masterwork chests. The only thing that makes them worth more is their rarity, which isn't really all that hard to establish given how rarely you get gemstones. You're hardly throwing vast sums of money out the window. If you're buying gemstone bundles it's because you want gemstones for something and therefore know their value to you, and if you're getting them for free...they're free. You could perhaps argue time, but you get them just for playing the game, so you'll either get another one eventually, or haven't invested enough in the game to care. If someone is converting their gemstones without even googling what the skins they list look like (at which point they'll inevitably turn up the "loot exclusive") then they obviously don't care all that much about the skins. There was also a notification in client for HT Annie, and SS Vayne, and LZ Hec and so on which say "Loot Exclusive". If you don't look at or read those notifications you clearly don't care about the skins or already knew. To you it may seem like a waste because the exclusivity of those skins has value to you, but to some people it just doesn't. I could care less about having Riot Squad Singed or PAX Jax because I don't like the skins and don't play the champions. If I got Black Alistar I'd be happy because it's a brutal skin, any exclusivity is a bonus sure, but it's *only* a bonus.
I guess we have to agree to disagree on this one. I just don't see why _(for any reason)_, something _(especially in a cyber world, where economics is nearly irrelevant)_ should be traded for anything less than its true value. Wether you desperately want a mythical skin, or just want to clear your loot inventory, you should receive a reward relative to the value of what you are trading in. People as wealthy as Bill Gates or Elon musk, probably buy and get rid of cars the same way we buy and get rid of fidget spinners. Does that mean that an Aston Martin DB9 should be worth any less just because it is less of a big deal for its owner? Elon Musk has the right to sell his car for exactly the same price as someone who has worked all their life to get the same car. Just because Elon Musk happens to have 5 of them and trades them out every year for a new model, doesn't mean they should be worth any less money if he chose to sell one. This is doubly true in a cyber world like league, where there are no economic or market factors in play such as deflation. If 10 gemstones is worth 1 mythical skin, then 1 gemstone should be worth something equivalent to 1/10th of a mythical skin. A chest and a key _(even a master chest/key)_ is not equivalent to a mythical skin. It takes roughly $250 to get enough gemstones for a mythical skin, it takes roughy $10 to get a skin that you would get from a chest. $10 isn't 1/10th of $250. Therefore, regardless of its personally value to you, if you trade gemstones for chests, _you are being short changed._ ______________ I understand that to some people a mythical skin _(like you say, 975 quality)_ may not be worth any more or less than a purchasable skin. However regardless of their view of it, due to its rarity, the actual value of the skin is higher. For example, just because the Mona Lisa and an exact forgery look identical, doesn't make them worth the same amount of money. To me, the two paintings are identical, so I see no reason to pay $1,000,000,000 for one and $25 for the other. However that doesn't mean that the Mona Lisa is worth any less, just because I personally wouldn't pay that much for it. Essentially the only difference between the Mona Lisa and an exact forgery is the fact that one is 'original' and there can be only 1 'original', where as there can be unlimited copies made. But does that really matter? They look identical, and the point of a painting is to look at it. So by that logic, they should be worth the same? But they're not. It's the same argument wth mythical skins. Just because you personally don't see the value, doesn't mean it isn't intrinsically valuable. So in a cyber world with a stagnant economy, regardless of how you feel about it, a gemstone has a distinct value, and that value is 10% of the value of a mythical skin. Therefore regardless of how valuable the gemstone is to you personally, you should receive a reward equivalent to its actual value. _(Remember because it's a cyber world, the value is set artificially by Riot, not by supply/demand of the players as it would be in a real economy.)_
: Just play lee sin 😏
You see, the problem with that is, that the ban phase comes _before_ the pick phase... {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
: No, old LB was so fun! W E Q R and something dies.
Fun for LB maybe.....
: Best splitpusher?
: Tried to quit League
Isn't that more of a reason to quit?
: They now convert to a Masterwork chest + key (cosmetics only). It's not meant to be equivalent, it's the same deal as exchanging even tokens for 15 BE. It's more to clear them out of your loot if you don't want them.
Yea I know, But why even have the option to clean them out in the first place? No one sits there and thinks: "Oh shit, that ugly gemstone ruins the symmetry of my loot page aesthetic! I have to get rid of it ASAP!" I see no reason why if you do for some reason want to get rid of it, you shouldn't be able to trade it for something of moderately equivalent value? _(I mean, youve 'earned' it, why should you be short changed?)_ That goes for tokens and blue essence too. I bet you that there are people who traded their gemstones for chests either accidentally or because they didn't realise that gemstones had another purpose. Those people were essentially robbed. If a player who remains within the client _(i.e. doesn't look at the boards or reddit or anything)_ gets a gemstone, they look at the options they have when they click on it: Save up 10 to get a skin, a little less for a ward, or they can trade 1 for a chest. And because they haven't done the research, they assume that all the options are fair and the reward if equivalent to the number of gemstones paid _(i.e. they may wrongly assume that Soulstealer Vayne is worth 10 chests)_, and so becasue the task of saving up 10 seems daunting, they choose the chest option, not realising they're throwing vast sums of money out the window. If you really care about players, you wouldn't give them an option to waste it. ______________________ It's like the Maori of old in NZ, when the european colonists came, they traded a single rifle and a couple of blankets for hundreds and hundreds of acres of pristine farmable land. Was it a legal transaction that both parties agreed on? Yes. But today we see that as abhorrent, disgusting manipulation, daylight robbery. Why should gemstones be any different? You're trading something insanely valuable, for fish and chips. it's dishonest.
Kizeod (OCE)
: Its compensation for people who cbf saving up gemstones or dont like any of the hextech exclusive skins.
So give them something worthwhile instead? A chest + key, basically = an Ashe champion shard. Hardly equivalent to a gemstone.
: Changes to Gemstone Redemption for Hextech Chests
Why could you even turn it into a chest in the first place? It's like being given a bar of gold and swapping it for a $20 note. Seems dishonest to even have the option to swap something you get once or twice a year for something you get weekly.
: I need help quitting league
It's just willpower. Going back to league is a conscious decision, therefore your brain is still in control. Which means there is no reason why you can't stop yourself from going back. Sheer force of will. However an easier option would be to change your password to: **agfu6tf739gfuG73rtfp93iG4TFw6ft80w** _(something you'll never remember)_, and then you'll be unable to log into your account. You may also want to switch your account's email to a new email address and 'lose' the password for that too, to make it harder to recover your account.
LAKIGR (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Sesshomaru,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=c8AbpfLi,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-04-19T12:37:42.473+0000) > > Yeah, cos its so much fun to play against an assassin who can kill you literally as soon as they come on the screen, with no meaningful counterplay? > > _(basic maths, either LB has a slightly harder time, or EVERYONE ELSE has a miserable time...)_ > > > Plus {{champion:238}} {{champion:105}} are arguably the strongest assassins, and a huge chunk of their damage is delayed as long or longer than LB's. U mean doing their job? Oh my bad I forgot we can’t allow adc to have a counter as a class. I mean adc only have life steal, percent damage reduction, ga, a cleanse, mr with a magic shield. And that’s not counting all the supports item to protect them. Let’s not forget that they out range every champ in the game and thanks to rapid fire they can seige decently well and they can crit for easily +800 damage. Let’s not forget that zed falls of hard late game as it becomes all most impossible to burst an adc through all the free shields and heals that are chucked their way not to mention the supports protecting them
Yea..... I'm guessing you don't play ADC aye? I doubt you'd be saying these things if you had an inkling of what ADC life is like. Any assassin can pretty much always kill any ADC at almost any point in the game, if they can't, the player is pretty damn shit! Seeming an assassins kit is purpose built around that 1 simple task _(and in an assassin meta as well)_. Riot have even said as much, that no matter how fed, assassins should always be able to take down the high priority target. _(otherwise they'd be a useless class when not fed)_. > I mean adc only have life steal, percent damage reduction, ga, a cleanse, mr with a magic shield. Lifesteal is very ineffective against assassins, _(not least because assassins nearly always take ignite as a summoner spell)_, becasue assassins burst down the enemy so quickly they don't have enough time to lifesteal, _(1 or 2 seconds isn't enough for an ADC to out-lifesteal an assassin's burst damage.)_ Percent damage reduction is also useless against assassins, seeming assassins do burst damage not sustained damage. _(like, thats basic stuff man... come on.)_ GA, lets not forget that if you're an AD assassin, chances are you're more likely to have this than the ADC. Cleanse, how does that help them escape your insane burst? Last time I checked, most assassins didn't have hard CC to cleanse.... MR with magic shield, you mean this: {{item:3156}}? or this: {{item:3814}}? Both are... **assassin** items bro. Built for and structured around... **assassins**. If an ADC is using them, then they are severely compromising their lategame damage, which should make them easier to kill, not harder. > Let’s not forget that they out range every champ in the game {{champion:268}} {{champion:30}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:134}} {{champion:4}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:101}} {{champion:115}} {{champion:142}} To name a just a _few_, Much outrange, such wow. The assassin class is 100% purpose built to kill high priority targets such as ADC's If you are failing to do that _(especially as Zed, late game...)_, something is drastically wrong...
LAKIGR (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Gehirn,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=c8AbpfLi,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-19T01:58:02.591+0000) > > Yea I'm not keen on old LB. W>QRE>W RIP cya ADC, you can't see me coming because it's too dangerous to ward unless your support is a supertank, you can't touch me because W, and you can't dodge two point-and-click nukes. You just have to stay grouped and rely on someone being able to insta-cc her when she dives you over a wall you don't have vision of, otherwise you don't get to play the game anymore after a certain point if the LB is good enough. > I'd rather play against a fed Rengar than an LB, because at least with Rengar once he's in he doesn't get to just teleport back to where he leaped from. > > If she becomes popular she'll be my default draft ban until that changes. This is definitely just the ranting of a salty Bot main though. I'm still hopeful they find some way to make old LB feel fair to play against. We'll see in a few patches if our concerns hold true, and a lot more is likely to change over that time given midseason patches coming up so anything could happen. yeah cos its so much fun to play an assassin and not be able to kill an adc becuase your burst damage is delayed and adc's deal so much damage and get life steal so they can just heal up anyway and with supports to protect them it just makes it even harder.
> [{quoted}](name=LAKIGR,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=c8AbpfLi,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-04-19T05:45:43.545+0000) > > yeah cos its so much fun to play an assassin and not be able to kill an adc becuase your burst damage is delayed and adc's deal so much damage and get life steal so they can just heal up anyway and with supports to protect them it just makes it even harder. Yeah, cos its so much fun to play against an assassin who can kill you literally as soon as they come on the screen, with no meaningful counterplay? _(basic maths, either LB has a slightly harder time, or EVERYONE ELSE has a miserable time...)_ Plus {{champion:238}} {{champion:105}} are arguably the strongest assassins, and a huge chunk of their damage is delayed as long or longer than LB's.
: Azir nerfs. Why are they nerfing the lowest winrate champion?
Azir has a low win rate because he is so difficult to play. Those who main him have a very high win rate on him, while people who try him out have like a 20% win rate _(estimate numbers)_. And because there are very few true Azir players, his win rate is fairly low because it is brought down by people just trying him out. There are many factors behind win rates, they aren't aways a true representation of how strong a champion is. especially with low pickrate champs like Azir. Ive mained Azir since he was released, and even at the deepest of his low points, I still had a 70% win rate on him. So imo he's never been too weak to play _(or even weak at all)_.
Gehirn (OCE)
: Yea I'm not keen on old LB. W>QRE>W RIP cya ADC, you can't see me coming because it's too dangerous to ward unless your support is a supertank, you can't touch me because W, and you can't dodge two point-and-click nukes. You just have to stay grouped and rely on someone being able to insta-cc her when she dives you over a wall you don't have vision of, otherwise you don't get to play the game anymore after a certain point if the LB is good enough. I'd rather play against a fed Rengar than an LB, because at least with Rengar once he's in he doesn't get to just teleport back to where he leaped from. If she becomes popular she'll be my default draft ban until that changes. This is definitely just the ranting of a salty Bot main though. I'm still hopeful they find some way to make old LB feel fair to play against. We'll see in a few patches if our concerns hold true, and a lot more is likely to change over that time given midseason patches coming up so anything could happen.
I personally loved the strategic thinking that you had to do when playing reworked LB. Dumbing her down again to 'hover cursor, spam all buttons as fast as possible.' is a bad move, especially seeming many mages/assassins already embody that play style. The strategy and thinking made her unique, but more importantly fed into her 'The Deceiver' theme, which made playing her that much more immersive. We dont need another braindead supernuke assassin, _(who once your fingers memorise a single combo)_, is hell to play against. ____________ Buuuuuuut what about Kindred? D: do we have any news about what is _(or isn't)_ happening with her/him/them/they? When/if is their revert coming?
: Patch 8.8 Notes
Where are the Dragon Master Swain chromas? I have been betrayed...
Wuks (OCE)
: Boards Updates Have Landed!
Im usually a fan of the _'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'_ mentality, and the oid version wasn't broken. Most people don't like change, so its always a risk. But in saying that, at the time I didn't see any problems with the old forums, and was opposed to the change the 'new' boards brought. But that turned out to be a positive one. Sooooo ill keep an open mind with this one. As a graphic designer, I tend to agree in part with Broken Scripts, there is a lot of blue, and it doesn't always help. And while blue is good _(hella better than red)_ there isn't enough contrast between the blue and the background banner _(the Jhin artworks of Garen/Sona etc_). I think the colour in that top banner needs to be more vivid in order to make enough contrast to justify this many shades of blue. _(like why is the post button blue now instead of brown? its just unnecessary, and makes it feel like its greyed out)._ Also a lot of the text _(and other artefacts)_ are now WAYYYY too close to the borders of their respective boxes. Most notable here: https://imgur.com/a/5hX4V The words are too close to the sides of the box and make it look unprofessional and cluttered. https://imgur.com/a/1SL8H Again here, there isn't enough room around all the artefacts in the box, you can see the images almost touching the borders of the allocated space. And why is there more room between the picture and the top of the border, than there is between the pic and the bottom? Not good. Not good at all. On a positive note, it is very clean and modern, the old design for the boards, while functional, looked dated before it even went live. ______________ #**ALSO MAJOR PROBLEM!!!** The stickers are too small to be as sarcastic as they need to be!!!! There was nothing better than a giant pantheon thumbs up to show how much you disapproved. Now they are too small to convey much emotion at all, sarcastic or otherwise.
: I understand what your saying about the slow and the damge output, that hasted to be changed , unfortunately I doubt riot will look into slows, they rather make or change a champ and give them 5000 dashes . Somthing elss that really annoys me but not related to this subject is, one of my favourite champions that deserve visual update but don’t get it because rito wants to be cheap and make people buy {{champion:77}} ultimate skin. Dear rito , I know udyr is a tad harder due to his 4 different models for his ability’s , you even mentioned it previously on a post but you know what, ever since that post on August 7, 2013 YOU ONLY HAD TIME SINCE THEN TO MAKE IT and it’s still not here. It’s not that you guys at design and in-game modeling crew can’t do it , it’s that you’re to lazy to do so
Udyr will get a VU, that is inevitable, _(his particles are little cartoon animals that pop up above his head.... like come on.)_ His ultimate skin was a delay on that VU, but it will be coming eventually, _(probably with a gameplay rework as well though)_. The only question is how important is he on Riot's list, obviously Akali and Nunu are next, how far Udyr is behind them, I cant say. But unless Riot are living on Mars, they must be aware that little cartoon animal popups do not cut it in a game where complex and particle heavy champs like Aurelion Sol and Zoe exist. So it _will_ come, but we cant be sure _when_ it will come.
: slows
Slows are strong atm, not because they themselves are OP, but because the current standard of damage is too high at the moment. Slows are death sentences these days because the enemy has enough damage to kill or dissuade you during the duration of the slow. Where as when the average damage of champions was much lower, slows were more of an inconvenience _(which is what they're meant to be)_ than anything else. The slow on you would end, and the chase/fight would resume. Now, if you live long enough for the slow to end, you're doing well! Because of how little time it takes a champion to kill you these days, slows _(as a separate form of CC)_ these days are pointless, they're basically snares that allow you to dash. Riot **HAS TO** ease back on the overall damage of the game, or it will very quickly reach a point where people just get sick of it and leave. Already people are sick of it, its only a matter of time _(from what i see at least)_, before this issue causes league to nose dive. Many people seem to be playing the game out of habit now, not genuine enthusiasm, _(and I must admit, the score of recent changes appear to be pushing me towards that end as well.)_ Something needs to be done.
: I personally don't feel like kindred is weak, just doesn't fit very well into the current meta. Though the only problem I see with them is that they rely too much on stacking and the enemy has too much information about where those stacks are. Often times the enemy can react before kindred can. I'd say if they want to 'fix' kindred then they should give her like a 10-second head start on where marks appear. Though imo that already sounds like a very strong buff to her playstyle.
I never said she was weak. Like any marksman, given the right situation she's awesome! She's just bloody f*cking annoying to play. First of all, the Jungler position is an early game one. Like all marksman, her strength definitely lies in the late game. So not only is she weaker in the _early game_ than other junglers _(obviously you cant have a late game hyper carry having a strong early game as well)_, which feels bad enough, but she is also pressured into going places that force a confrontation between her and the enemy _(who unless they are a shitty jungler, (and unless the mark is scuttle crab) will ALWAYS reach her mark first.)_ Her movement speed is one of the lowest in the game _(unlike most other junglers)_, and her marks always spawn on the side of the map where her enemy is going to be anyway. Which would be fine if her marks felt worthwhile going for, but they don't. The old marks gave a clear, visible, effect: you now do X% more damage, you knew that with 12 marks, you'd do approximately 12% HP damage. The new ones are so convoluted that you don't see or feel their effect, you know they make you stronger statistically, but you don't notice any difference, and the one part you do notice _(the range increase)_ only happens every now and then. and even then, the range increase is more of a token thing than a practical one. She needs 20 marks just to match Caitlin's range _(I dunno about you, but I've never seen a Kindred get 20 marks)_. Yes she's very strong in late game, but in the early and mid game _(when a jungler is supposed to be useful)_ the disadvantages are stacked way too much against her. That doesn't necessarily make her weaker, it just makes her very frustrating to play. And on top of it all, her gank potential is mediocre at best, she gets one minor slow and thats it, most mid-lane roams are more effective than her ganks. So not only does she feel unable to hunt her marks in the jungle, but she also finds it difficult to secure them from ganks as well. and if your laners don't have your back 100% when you gank, she gets bursted down instantly. ___________________ Im not saying to buff her, every champ needs strong and weak phases, and its cool and unique to have a marksman jungle, but you can move her strengths and weaknesses around to make her still balanced, but less 'smash your head against a brick wall' to play. As it stands, why pick Kindred over Twitch? What can she do that he cant? His invis makes ganking more successful. His DPS is greater than hers. He doesn't have to run headlong into Kha'Zix patrolled jungle camps just to get marks that feel worthless. Apart from her ult, theres nothing she can do that a Twitch or Graves or Kai'Sa jungle can't do just as well or better, and for a lot less effort. Sorry for the rant, I just love that champ, but it just feels so stink playing her, when it didn't used to before the rework. The current meta certainly doesn't help of course, but tbh for an early-game marksman in a jungle stalked by assassins and fighters, there is never going to be a meta where she isn't more prey than predator, _(which sucks seeming her whole thing is that she's supposed to be the grim reaper)_. ____________________ As just a random suggestion, maybe take some of the power away from obtaining the marks, and give it to the mark itself. When you're hunted by Rengar or Warwick and you see that symbol above your head, your thoughts are: _"FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK RUUUUUUUUUUNN!!!!!!"_ When youre marked by Kindred **(THE GRIM REAPER)**, your thoughts are: _"Ehhh.. I hope she doesn't kill me, cos then she'll get a mark."_ Maybe turn the mark itself into some kind of specific debuff? so that her target actually feels hunted, marked junglers maybe have to think twice about seeking her out in the jungle, marked laners are maybe a little more wary of being ganked. Make them feel like prey. Her whole story is about choosing your death, by the arrow or by the teeth. Maybe her playstyle should reflect that? Marked targets should have to make the choice of either turning to face her in battle, or running for their damn lives.
Rioter Comments
: I need to learn Azir. Runes and laning phase details, please?
#Runes For runes I take the precision tree. Keystone: Lethal Tempo Tier 1: Presence of mind Tier 2: Alacrity Tier 3: Cut down Domination Tree Tier 1: Ravenous hunter Tier 2: Taste of Blood Thats obviously my personal preference, Azir is one of the few mages who can shred tanks, so I like to focus my playstyle on his sustained damage output, hence favouring attack speed and anti-tank runes. The healing from Domination is a personal touch (I like a bit of sustain) and that too helps when fending off tanks. If you want him to be bustier, then perhaps take Electrocute as a keystone, and sorcery as a secondary tree, it'll help you more in lane. if you go the bursty path, focus more on flat AP stats rather than anti-tank stuff. ____________________ #In lane In lane, Azir is definitely not as much of a lane bully as he used to be, his recently shortened range now puts him in the danger zone of most champs while he is poking or harassing. So I like to keep my harass to short sweet bursts, with the combo [W, AA, Q, AA], place a soldier with W, attack them once, while your AA is on cool down, use your Q to slow them and position your soldier behind them, so when they try to leave, you can attack again on their way out. It's tempting to AA more than once after you have Q'd, and if you think you can get away with it, go for it! But the more time you spend attacking, the more at risk you become of copping some of their damage. Mid lane is all about exchanges. Getting a little damage off on them and taking none yourself, is far better than getting a huge chunk of damage off, but also being hit a lot yourself. and unlike other mages, Azir has to mostly remain still when poking, so he open himself up to retaliation more than most, which is why in lane, I like to keep things short and sweet, so I'm back in the safe zone, by the time they realise they they're being harassed. Azir is a late game hyper carry, so the best thing for you to do in lane is just farm up rather than worrying about early kills. Use your harass to show your dominance and punish them when they try to farm, but DON'T look for opportunities to engage. If it comes to a skirmish, you will win drawn out fights, but most mid laners will have dropped their combos and be long gone by the time you've set up all 3 soldiers. So it's generally best to avoid those little skirmishes, and only go ham when you think the fight will last long enough to give you the advantage. You're far better off ignoring kills for the most part and just use your harass to make them afraid of farming, while you gobble up all the CS. Because of his ult, Azir is far better at counter engaging, than engaging. If you are confident that you can take them in a fight, try not to engage yourself, but rather use your frail body as bait, and when they engage, throw them back to your tower and spam soldiers on them while they are panicking to get away. As for CSing, your normal auto attacks are far easier to last hit with than the soldiers! They are instant _(and i mean you click, and Azir has already attacked)_, this means you can wait for minions to get really low before last hitting, none of this allowing for animation and travel time shit. Soldiers' attacks are AoE and very easily push the lane unintentionally. Use the soldiers for risky CS, or if you are behind and afraid of them engaging on you, the soldiers give you increased range and you can sit comfortably back and CS from long range when your opponent is scary. ______________________ #Tips and tricks Always try to keep a solider in storage, just incase you need to make a quick escape from a sneaky jungler, or an engage from your lane opponent. When attacking a tower, if you're confident that you wont be ganked, spam all 3 soldiers behind you _(out of range of the tower)_ which will give you the attack speed boost. Remember your E has 3 parts, a dash, a shield, and damage. When to use it, is dependant on which part you need most. In a duel you can save it for a clutch shield like barrier, or you can use it to reposition _(or escape)_ in a fight, or if its a close fight and you really need some extra burst, use it for a little extra damage. Remember that your E always gives you a shield now, even out of combat. So if you see a Karthus ult coming down, or ignite ticking away on you. Don't forget that your E provides a pretty meaty shield. _______________________ #Spells Azir is a sustained damage champ, the longer he lives, the more damage he does. So I like to take spells that help him live as long as he can. Its tempting for any mid laner to take ignite. But the main purpose of ignite is to give champs a little extra damage once their combo is done. Azir doesn't need extra damage, he has all he needs. You just need to live long enough to do it. So I take barrier and flash on him, barrier is clutch, and it extends your life enough to pump out a little extra damage. If you need any proof, measure how much damage you do between casting barrier, and having the shield destroyed. You'll find that it heavily out damages Ignite at almost all times in the game _(with the exception of early game)_. Good luck! and have fun with my baby :3 {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
: Irelia Frostblade Rework - What happens when the product changes? Refunding altered products
I agree with this 100% While most major VU updates are pretty good, and almost always result in an outcome that people are more satisfied with, the changes are often enough that the new champion only vaguely resembles the old one, so calling it the same product just because the 'new' champ has the same name as a champ that used to exist, is a bit of a cop-out. https://imgur.com/a/ZGlBT ^ Many players today wouldn't even know who that champ is, let alone what he used to do. 1 ability is similar, that and the name. How can you justify calling that the same product as the champ we have today? Its like giving someone a Coke Zero when they ordered a Coffee and saying _"whats the problem? its still brown and in a cup."_ Therefore I think reworked champs and their skins should be treated as new products. This means that within the first week of release, players should have the option to refund the champion and or skins for the price they were purchased at, without consuming any refund tokens. _(Realistically very few people are gunna refund a shiny new skin, but having the option would make people feel less at the mercy of the system when their stuff gets changed out of the blue.)_ However being treated as a 'new' champ, they should also be bumped up to max BE and RP price in the store, and their skins' prices be updated as well to reflect quality changes. Thats only fair to Riot. _________________ Legally, there is no argument, it says in the terms and conditions of the game that we as players don't own any of the content we purchase , _(we don't even own our accounts)_. So seeming we don't own any of the content we buy, thats how they get away with changing it whenever they like without repercussions. Becasue they're only changing their own stuff, not ours, we just borrow it. _(e.g. you cant take your neighbour to court when he re-paints his lawnmower that you borrow on Saturday morning.)_ Legally, no. But morally, yes, they should allow refunds when content like Frostblade Irelia is drastically changed.
Cola71t (OCE)
: Fun Champions?
You could be finding champs boring because your playing ones like Tryndamere.. I find more complex champs hold my interest. Everyone who has ever read one of my posts knows that I'm in love with Azir, Aurelion Sol, and Taliyah _(with Swain now close behind)_ The thing about those 3 champs is: **1. They're relatively difficult.** Difficult champs become boring far less quickly because you spend a MUCH longer time actually learning how to play them _(It took me a better part of 20 games just to stop feeding as Azir when he first came out.)_. Even once you learn them, they still keep you on your toes, its a constant battle trying to keep on top of them, making sure you don't get rusty _(if you get rusty on Trynd, you play 1 game and you're back in the swing again, get rusty on Azir... well... good luck.)_. So when youre playing these champs, you'll put in double the effort, and your performance will still be less than it was with Trynd. So not only is it a battle trying to play the champ properly, but it also forces you to be a better player just to keep at the same level you were at before. So thats a lot to think about and focus on, and its hard to get bored with that much on your plate. **2. They're interesting.** Azir's kit just has so much in it, from creating terrain, to summoning towers, to auto-attacking abilities, dashes, shields, slows, knockbacks. Hell his soldiers even dance when he dances, his kit has a lot to keep you entertained. While Aurelion Sol's kit is simpler, it is unique enough to be very interesting, and with over 30 mins of continuous voice over his game-long sarcasm and sass is always entertaining! Taliyah's play style involves playing around the worked ground, strategising about where and when you put it down, her kit requires a lot of prediction: Predicting her W timing, placing her E where it will do the most damage, predicting their movement when following with your Q, predicting the enemies speed when you Ult. That is something that always keeps you on your toes. **3. They have personality.** This is highly important for me personally. Champs like Jhin, Jinx, Aurelion Sol, Yorick, Ivern etc. have such amazing voice interactions, it just makes playing them so so SO much more enjoyable. From Sol's sass to Ivern's loopy logic, its something that keeps you enthused even during the boring parts of the game, like walking to lane, or wandering the jungle etc. When your champ is Trynd and only has like 10 lines, and those 10 lines are just "Blood!" "Kill" "Im stronger than u" it gets very tedious. So if you're looking for a champ to keep you interested, try finding some with those 3 criteria: **Difficulty**, **Interesting kit** _(there is a difference, you can be hard and have a boring kit, like Lissandra, or Sona)_, and **personality**. _________________________________ Obviously I can highly recommend Azir/Sol/Taliyah, but those champs _(especially Sol)_ don't always appeal to everyone. So some others you might be interested in are: **Yasuo** _(as much as I despise him and everyone who has anything to do with him, he's actually a really cool champ thematically.)_, he isn't hard to play, so unlike Azir you don't go through the brutal learning curve, but once you can play him, learning to master him is not as easy as it looks. His kit just revolves around the standard 'AA-crit' gameplay, but dashing everywhere and throwing windwalls and tornados out, makes his kit much more interesting than the rest of his AA-crit buddies like Yi or Trynd. His personality is pretty unimaginative, but the lone swordsman on a path of vengeance and redemption is always a classic, and never really gets old. **Kayn** He isn't really that difficult, but his double personality and internal convos with Rhaast, alongside his kit that has EVERYTHING, more than make up for it. **Ivern** If you like winning, maybe don't pick Ivern, but if you want to have a great time, he's definitely the champ for you! His difficulty comes, not from the complexity of his kit, but from the fact that he is outclassed by other junglers in pretty much everything: Damage/durability/gank potential etc. Hit kit is unique, summoning Daisy and bushes, but his main appeal comes from his wacky personality which has you in stitches even in a losing game. **Evelynn** I haven't played much of new Eve so I cant speak for her difficulty, but invisibly stalking the jungle makes her playstyle very interesting, and as for her personality.... lets just say, most guys _(and some girls too of course)_ very much appreciate it. **Bard** Bard looks simple, but playing him well is no mean feat. His kit has a lot in it for those who know how to use it. What really makes Bard interesting is that you can adapt his build path HUGELY, you can go full heal bot support with Ardent and Redemption, and all those 'be around me to live' items. Or you can build full hybrid attack speed, with rageblade nashors etc, and delete everyone. He's just so versatile. Despite having no voice lines, he does still have more personality than your typical Darius/Garen etc. **Gangplank** Not the easiest to play, not the hardest either, but highly rewarding. His barrels accompanied by his ult upgrade choices, make his kit pretty fun and interesting to play, while still retaining the power of a crit champ. And his personality... well.. he's a pirate... do you need more than that?
Hii (OCE)
: Emotes from minions, dragon etc
Or, we could just enjoy the quirkiness of April fools, and accept that in a couple of days it'll be gone? Every year people lose their shit over April fools.. Is it so hard to have Draven faces or GG emotes for a couple of days?
Show more

Lord Sesshomaru

Level 10 (OCE)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion