: Nexus Blitz Feedback
enchanter supports aren't as good as you think in nexus blitz, the chaotic choke teamfights often mean you have to position way too close, and if your team knows to recall properly, the smaller map size, means that soraka's heal is more like a small health buffer than something that helps you win a sustained fight, especially when fighting for an event is often faster than a death timer. On that note, Lulu, Nami, Morg and Orianan do break this trend; but supports like Soraka, Karma, Janna, and Sona do not perform well against good nexus blitz comps, because in the face of a balanced frontline and engage, the enclosed fighting space means their impact is greatly reduced. and yes I realised, that I have just said that half the enchanters are good here and half of them aren't. On another note, teamcomp and combinations have far more gravitas than players give credit, in the outcome of nexus blitz, and assassins aren't exactly the biggest issue, more so that, snowbally bruisers are (except rengar and kayn), assassins are only overpowered against nexus blitz comps that didn't balance well and lack the brawling style necessary to win. Nexus blitz rarely comes down to battles of attrition and poke.
: A lot of discussion has been around "oh he is too cute to be an angry monster", but just look at his design. A mouth big enough to bit a man in two, antlers so you know its gonna head-but hard and six limbs each with 3 claws that I'd imagine are pretty strong. That's one hell of a beast.
it's not that he isn't still a monster, it's just that he looks alot friendlier than he did, which Nunu mains don't like because they're already a bit memey and the fact that Nunu looked mildly intimidating was one of the ways they felt better when playing him.
: How many Boards posts do you have?
Hey Nightjar, you have a total of 1256 posts on the Oceania League of Legends Boards! I should post more when I have time, however I doubt I'd lose in word count to any of you. I have some atrociously long posts in my past, especially back in Season 6 where the boards was still a place to discuss non-meta and meta builds, analysis and discussion of champion kits in great detail with math. I particuarly remember the times when I calculated exactly how much damage you needed to build on a range of assassins, to just barely be able to 100-0 squishies with quick burst spell rotation at various stages of the game, whilst simultaneously finishing the rest of the build with pure tank items. Btw if the answer to this is 1 damage items or less in early-mid, the assassin has too much base damage (back when rengar had that bonus AD bug, you could get away with just a black cleaver and with the right runes, and assuming the adc only had say a dorans shield, ninja tabi and a cloth armour, you had enough damage to 100-0 them with a spell rotation and have about 3 damage to spare).
: Rumor of Getting Killed in Tryndamere ULT
there was a bug between press the attack's damage amplification and ryze's spellflux damage amplification, such that the amplification amount of one's extra damage of the other's amplified bonus, wasn't accounted for with Tryndamere's cannot fall below 1hp on his ult, which meant that Tyndamere would hit 0hp or less, and just die. Vandil made a video about it. The bug has been fixed.
: Garen is so easy to outplay. I can't remember the last time I lost lane to a Garen. He's really only op at low elo where people pick whoever they want and pay no attention to team comp and counter picks. Mundo is far more op than Garen
by a similar token, Mundo only becomes a problem when people don't punish him early game. He spends hp to use spells, and so can often get quite low through trades and getting shoved in. Also you'd be surprised how difficult garen can get to deal with even in middling elos. He's very hard to punish in lane, and whilst his kit is linear, Garen still has traditionally sported a very strong winrate from bronze-platinum, atm that's about 53% until we hit the skillgap which is diamond and his winrate drops down to a still decent 49%. Edit: Also in NA Garen's winrate 52-53% doesn't fall off until master tier and in KR his winrate flatlines at 50.5% until you reach challenger where it suddenly tanks down to 45%. Go figure.
: When a champ is a little too good, at a little too many things. [A study on Garen]
if your team isn't dumb it should have enough cc. An adc isn't supposed to duel a garen in a sidelane (for that matter, I don't think many champions should duel garen in a sidelane). In a teamfight between a maokai+alistair or Leona+Ornn, Janna+Naut, Nami+Darius, the garen would be lucky to be able to make half the distance to the adc before getting worn down. Hell even in a sidelane come lategame, a lux+garen vs a nami+Jinx, my bet is going to be on the botlane combo (even in this stupid excuse for a meta). Garen is good, he's pretty overtuned, but he offers no cc, he's not huge at playmaking, he kind of nukes 1 person, his playstyle is linear and his engage himself is not especially strong. As a counterpoint, you would generally, and would probably need to, build around garen to make a teamcomp work, providing some really hard engage. With Garen, similar to Mundo or Olaf, you trade out CC and mobility for improving damage and tankiness, and I'd argue Garen is the easiest to deal with lategame of the three, because Mundo at a moments notice his team gives him a speedbuff and he just runs through the teamfight, forcing your team to waste alot keeping him from reaching the backline, especially with that made tenacity and stacking magic resist from W, mundo is weaker than garen early, but lategame mundo is massive problem. Olaf when he ults, is just immune to cc, so if you're not a mobile adc, you either need to be able to burst a 4k hp Olaf because he lifesteals a ridiculous amount, or just accept your death.
ThatsBS (OCE)
: Im going to copy your chat and reply to each one lol: * people who die solo lvl2 to enemy laner and blame jungler. - This is at bot lane i guess? **Idk why they would go in 1 v 2, but i could be that they are defending their turret and are probably raged that their team mate died...** * or maybe people who refuse to leash you because they want to run some cheese bush strat that rarely works. - **I fully agree.** * people who run it down mid, just because they're the only one doing badly in a game where the team is winning. - **Again totally agree** * when teammates ignore your pings as the enemy jungler walks over 3 wards without sweeping, and feeds em 2-3 kills getting them snowballing, even though the enemy jungler didn't deserve em, and it's your fault because you were on the other side of the map clearing your jungle and looking for a gank toplane. **- yep agree again.** * adcs who afk for the first 10min, leaving you in a 1v2, come back, and then complain when you've built onhit janna and you are taking cs and refuse to support them back into the game, when you're already a strong independent carry who doesn't need an adc to do damage for them. **- Ahh, probably not the right mindset to have, esp going into late game, when your needed as a support.. They will catch up (In levels eventually, hopefully before lvl18) and will be focused into the game as they are late,. You will need them, even if you are going really strong...... Anyways you should of remade the game...? ** * people who complain I don't spoonfeed them a kill simply because I'm the support, when I earnt it, I literally solod them, I am not going to just give them back shutdown gold 1min later. If you're 0-5 at 10min, my gifting you 1 or 2 kills isn't going to magically get you back into the game, shutup and freeze and farm under tower, and let me do my own thing. **An ADC requires more gold then any other champ as the items are the most expensive usually, but if they are going bad, its still wise IMO to give them the kill as they fell better. Its a mental thing for them....! (You not gunna require the gold as much as them of course, since you aren't farming, so they need to stay in the game as much as possible, you're probably making it even worse and easier for the enemy..** * supports who aren't really supports, start dorans ring/blade, take cs and basically have no intention of actually peeling or supporting you, because they don't like autofill. Leaving you to fend for yourself as an immobile adc against a very aggressive leona+lucian. -**Yep totally agree on this one, instead of 5 v 5 its now 6v4, as the silly non-sup has made it soo much harder for the team....** * laners who don't understand shoving and taking tower, when you force enemy lane to back/die, and they have no way of getting back to tower before you either take it, or force the wave to bounce back and reset, rather than slowpush. **Again yep totally agree** * people who don't notice you waiting in a bush with your control ward for at least 15s waiting for a chance to ambush the enemy laner, and so when you pop out and combo the enemy laner, they don't react and keep csing, and then complain you should have pinged it.**True** * people that say you didn't ping, when you fucking did and it's in chat, and they still argue. **Haha no arguments here** * when a team blames the jungler when the jungler has 100% kill participation, only positive KDA, most damage, vision and cc scores, and the rest of the team has more than 1 death per minute. **Yeah i'v seen this alot... as well..** * people who can somehow die more than once a minute. **Uh, were they playing against Trick 2g and bronze?** * junglers who get executed more than twice in a game (I'll allow thrice if one more is to baron, sometimes baron spikes can be unexpectedly harsh when trying to rush baron early). ** Yeah fair enough** * teammates who complain, that you haven't 'died enough' as a tank jungle/support/top. So long as you soak up most your hp worth of damage and cooldowns, and provide peel/engage and some decent damage. You've more than done your job, and risking any longer in a fight, gives enemy shutdown gold and triumph healing, underdoing all your good efforts. **Hmmm, there is a grey area in this IMO, as some believe most of your hp is half... I'v seen alot of tank/sups etc who go in take some damage then run and poor adc not peeled for, team dies and tank sup or jungle are wondering round with half of a HP bar...**
you'd be surprised how much a few supports work with damage builds. A fed Ap morgana's binding will chunk just about any mid or adc, Atkspeed Bard has very very high burst, Ad thresh can and will oneshot enemy champions, Bruiser Leona can be a big menace in teamfights and I have on one occasion jumped a vayne as she was taking red buff and killed her, atkspeed Lulu can be quite scary dps in midgame, hybrid Janna needs alot of gold to get started but has terrifying scaling, support Naut can become toplane Naut if he gets a bit of an experience lead, AP Sona is a strong mage, to name just a few examples. Also you are support, but you are not adc's support. If the adc gameplan fails, you're much better off supporting top/mid/jg. An adc that is 10-12min behind is going to take a long time to get back into the game, so it's better if you help the rest of the map and your team try to hold out. Also shutdown gold hurts your team alot now. So it's really a bad idea to give someone who dies alot back their shutdown bounty, and most your hp as a tank = as much damage as you can take without dying / taking the brunt of an important cd like veigar ult or malzahar ult and crossing your fingers.
: What triggers you the most in LoL? I'll start.
- people who die solo lvl2 to enemy laner and blame jungler. - or maybe people who refuse to leash you because they want to run some cheese bush strat that rarely works. - people who run it down mid, just because they're the only one doing badly in a game where the team is winning. - when teammates ignore your pings as the enemy jungler walks over 3 wards without sweeping, and feeds em 2-3 kills getting them snowballing, even though the enemy jungler didn't deserve em, and it's your fault because you were on the other side of the map clearing your jungle and looking for a gank toplane. - adcs who afk for the first 10min, leaving you in a 1v2, come back, and then complain when you've built onhit janna and you are taking cs and refuse to support them back into the game, when you're already a strong independent carry who doesn't need an adc to do damage for them. - people who complain I don't spoonfeed them a kill simply because I'm the support, when I earnt it, I literally solod them, I am not going to just give them back shutdown gold 1min later. If you're 0-5 at 10min, my gifting you 1 or 2 kills isn't going to magically get you back into the game, shutup and freeze and farm under tower, and let me do my own thing. - supports who aren't really supports, start dorans ring/blade, take cs and basically have no intention of actually peeling or supporting you, because they don't like autofill. Leaving you to fend for yourself as an immobile adc against a very aggressive leona+lucian. - laners who don't understand shoving and taking tower, when you force enemy lane to back/die, and they have no way of getting back to tower before you either take it, or force the wave to bounce back and reset, rather than slowpush. - people who don't notice you waiting in a bush with your control ward for at least 15s waiting for a chance to ambush the enemy laner, and so when you pop out and combo the enemy laner, they don't react and keep csing, and then complain you should have pinged it. - people that say you didn't ping, when you fucking did and it's in chat, and they still argue. - when a team blames the jungler when the jungler has 100% kill participation, only positive KDA, most damage, vision and cc scores, and the rest of the team has more than 1 death per minute. - people who can somehow die more than once a minute. - junglers who get executed more than twice in a game (I'll allow thrice if one more is to baron, sometimes baron spikes can be unexpectedly harsh when trying to rush baron early). - teammates who complain, that you haven't 'died enough' as a tank jungle/support/top. So long as you soak up most your hp worth of damage and cooldowns, and provide peel/engage and some decent damage. You've more than done your job, and risking any longer in a fight, gives enemy shutdown gold and triumph healing, underdoing all your good efforts. Yeah I may seem nice in game, but secretly I hate most my teammates. {{sticker:sg-shisa}}
: > [{quoted}](name=Nightjar,realm=OCE,application-id=hIjvqaz6,discussion-id=PqikJEGv,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-06-13T05:11:10.728+0000) > > between the anorexic lux, the mid size leona, strong lady illaoi and the monstrous rek'sai and annivia, we don't have many body figures left. > > I'm not sure we could include an obese female character without making it offensive. I mean gragas already satires negative stereotypes of obesity. What new satires could we make that wouldn't be extremely sexist? (also I think everyone has an agreement that gragas isn't a healthy body image). > > Personally I'd like an old lady character in league, something creepy, something dark, possibly with a mechanical arm and a theme of childish traps and creepy little distortions of children's toys. An Assassin who works on fear and careful planning. Something that looks evil but is actually kind. Maybe against type make her an old noxian lady and toymaker who mourns all the children lost to war, and now driven to despair by loss and anger, she works tirelessly, distorting her craft for a means to end the endless warring. Someone who threatens the leaders and warmakers, strikes fear in their hearts. Not just an old lady, but an incarnation of the suffering, the loss and outrage of the people, something tenacious, tireless and terrifying. So, basically, you want Hagatha from WoW/Hearthstone I would like another illaoi type figure, i think its time we started looking more at strong women than tits on a skewer :^)
well I mean we have Illoai, Sejuani and Leona for various forms of stronglady, but how many creepy old ladies do we have? We have creepy old man swain and less creepy zilean, but the closest thing we have to an old lady is Annivia, and her creepy factor just really isn't cutting it. Also I really really want a creepy pre-meditated assassin. Shaco boxes are fun, but I'd really like a champion who really breaks the concept of premeditated vs reactive. Almost every champion in league is reactive now, and I think a calm and creepy old lady would be a great thematic for that.
: Illaoi is "full figure". You're talking obese. You want an obese female in league. Which is fine, but lets not mince words. But the inspiration for making a champion should come from a cool idea about the kit or gameplay not just "lets put a fat woman in".
between the anorexic lux, the mid size leona, strong lady illaoi and the monstrous rek'sai and annivia, we don't have many body figures left. I'm not sure we could include an obese female character without making it offensive. I mean gragas already satires negative stereotypes of obesity. What new satires could we make that wouldn't be extremely sexist? (also I think everyone has an agreement that gragas isn't a healthy body image). Personally I'd like an old lady character in league, something creepy, something dark, possibly with a mechanical arm and a theme of childish traps and creepy little distortions of children's toys. An Assassin who works on fear and careful planning. Something that looks evil but is actually kind. Maybe against type make her an old noxian lady and toymaker who mourns all the children lost to war, and now driven to despair by loss and anger, she works tirelessly, distorting her craft for a means to end the endless warring. Someone who threatens the leaders and warmakers, strikes fear in their hearts. Not just an old lady, but an incarnation of the suffering, the loss and outrage of the people, something tenacious, tireless and terrifying.
Kidehe (OCE)
: New Kayne skin? Christmas Candy Kayne??
I don't even play kayne and I want this.
: Electrocute isn't about instances of damage. Its about hitting the target with auto attacks or abilities. It doesn't specify damaging them. E.g. If I land 1 Q and 1 AA with Karthus, my W _(which does no damage)_ will proc Electrocute when an enemy touches it. All you have to do is land the spell, not damage them with it. So even though Panth is blocking the damage, he still got hit with the spell/auto. ________________ Tbh I think its kinda weird that they put in a rune that is basically thunderlords, but have it work under very different rules. It works too efficiently on some champs e.g. Ryze or Kog, who can land 3 autos/abilities in 0.5 of a second. And screws over champs like Taliyah who even if she hits all 5 rocks on her Q, wont proc electrocute. Its hardly a fair playing field. Thunderlords was dumb on ticking spells like Morg's puddle. But at least it gave everyone a fair chance of procing it.
I think this video helps explain the way electrocute works through a funny little interaction between the cast checks for leesin ult and electrocute. https://youtu.be/GBqbmsTJzZo
Rioter Comments
Ornn Bot (OCE)
: agreed no tanks should do more damage with no damage items then damage dealers
mundo isn't really a tank is as much as garen isn't a tank, darius isn't a tank. They are tanky. They are not tanks. They are bruisers. Maokai is a tank, leona is a tank, Nautilus is a tank, alistair is a tank. They are both tanky and have CC, lockdown and engage. They get very tanky with few items thanks to aftershock and resistance steroids. Mundo isn't a tank, he builds tanky and has amazing base damage thanks to his utter lack of ratios, but he's actually more of a bruiser. Mundo also isn't really tanky until later into the game, a 8min Alistair can engage a 5man under a tower with low risk. A 8min mundo however cannot. Mundo is one of the hardest scaling bruisers in the game because earlygame, he sucks. His abilities cost health, he has few actual damage steroids, his waveclear burns through hp fast, and he has very little mobility outside of some tenacity and his ult's movespeed. Mundo loses alot of earlygame lane bully matchups hard, but he scales exceptionally well, and lategame your options to peel him boil down to a strong lockdown frontline, or hoping your carries have both the ability to cut healing as well as resistance penetration.
: cuz they know the server would be down if they chose the weekend.
: Wouldn't less people playing, cause the number of bots we see in our games to increase? So by telling people to quit the game, aren't you partially contributing to the problem?
I assume you're playing devils advocate but don't, you just anger the community. The botting problem has been getting progressively worse and needs to be fixed. Whilst you're right about low queue numbers exacerbating the symptoms, don't ignore the underlying disease; players are well within their rights to quit if their favourite queue or game mode is being compromised (I assume this is either TT, Coop vs Ai or pre30 normals, ARAM gets this too from time to time but with Bilgewater event you probably won't see many atm). Also if people are quitting the game, won't that mean less people will be buying fresh accounts, which means botted accounts lose their value, which would reduce the incidence of botting? See how that logic works?
Maaron (OCE)
: I know what you mean when you say: "don't decide to try out new champions during placement games, you will kill your mmr". This goes for all ranked games, not just placements. That is the whole problem. The game at the moment is such that it is extremely hard to find a decent game where there are no players who get triggered or aggro at you because they think you are bad. I find this to be extremely tilting, making it hard for me to even get a decent game on the champions I want to practise. This goes for normal games too. If you try out a champion first time in norms, and you play badly, you will get flamed so hard that you don't want to play anymore. The LoL community is just like this at the moment. This is why bots are a good tool to practise new champions and your mechanics on them. Bots are AI, so they don't get aggro at you and they don't tilt you. Overall, I believe that it would be worth the effort for Riot to try and introduce 'hard difficulty' bots. Or, if that is too much, at least try to fix the 'run it down mid mobis' bug that is currently plaguing 'intermediate' bots. P.S. Good luck climbing out of S2. I know how it feels - been stuck silver for a while now. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
the run it down mid mobi bots aren't a bug... they're a program run by people selling fresh accounts. They make new accounts with randomnamexrandomnumber, and then they have these accounts powerfarm Co-op vs Ai, with the aim of losing a game as quick as possible to maximize xp farming. In practice this forces a real player faced with 4 of these on their team, to go into a solo top or bot lane against 2 enemy bots, which is very hard to snowball off hard enough, to counteract the fact that you have 4 'allies' feeding mid at the fastest possible rate. The botting accounts, is still very much an issue, because people still like to buy fresh accounts after their mains get banned, and as riot has already said, it's not profitable for them to focus on shutting it down.
Maaron (OCE)
: If you have trouble 1v5 the bots, something is wrong with your gameplay. Any champion, doesn't matter how bad they are or what role they are designed for, should be able to confidently 1v5 bots. Yes, even "intermediate" bots.
In a custom Summoners Rift game, with 1 vs 5 Intermediate Bots, I would wholeheartedly agree, I actually use this to practice many champions from victor and zed to tahm kench and maokai. The issue is with run it down mid mobi boots bots. 4 deaths every minute, you have to deal with the fact that on a purely stat level, the enemy bots can keep up with you and will have alot of gold and kills, meaning your only real option is to outplay them, and this is easier said than done for some champions. For Mages you have the fact that bots can't dodge. For Adcs you have the fact that bots don't understand range and will let you auto them for free. For Bruisers, you have the fact that the bots aren't good at peeling and so you mow down the backline ezpz. For Assassins, you can outplay, and bots are simple. For mage supports see mages. For tank supports and low damage defensive tanks, you either build any damage that works with your kit, or you accept you're done because the 5man deathball is especially deadly, considering statwise they stand on equal ground to you. Depending on what champion you are playing and which bots you're playing against (some of the Intermediate Ai's get suicidal post 15min) this game of one competent human +4mobiboots chains vs 5 very simple but fed Intermediate Bots, can offer a challenge range between high bronze to mid gold in terms of difficulty. Last season I had 2 accounts in mid gold as either this Jung/Sup, or my alt the Top/Mid where I discovered that role can influence ego and toxicity, and I have in fact lost, one of these 1(-4) vs 5 bot games whilst I was levelling that alt. Also this season I am currently stuck in Silver 2. Don't decide to try out new champions during placement games, you will kill your mmr.
Leeboes (OCE)
: come off it, you talk like your a developer QAPLA if they can produce medium and low they can produce high rate very very easily.
bots aren't really that interesting for the community. They're a learning tool for the very early stages of learning league. Not much reason for them to invest in upgrading the bots, and tbh with the botting farm accounts, being in a 1v5 with 4 mobi boots run it down mid bots (shorter games help them level up faster), and trying to 1v5 fight for the win is challenging enough for most gold players even.
Aoses 077 (OCE)
: I just kicked from clash, whats going to happen?
my team members couldn't lock in, so when lock in timer expired, I left. I don't even get a free win, rip.
: #**Well I want to play AP attack speed Crit Nami jungle!** **It's not fair that I should be railroaded into playing support with a champ intended to be a support!!** Why shouldn't it be viable to play Nami how I want?! I want to get pentakills with Nami! Its not fair!!!!!!! I don't bother building her support, she should just be a damage champ!!! da balance team don't know shit about how nami should be played!! {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} You see how It sounds stupid when we think of playing Nami in other playstyles. So why is it so stupid that Sion should be played the way he was intended too? Sion is a tank, he was a tank before his rework, and he's still a tank today. Admittedly a fighter/tank, but still unmistakably a tank _(you can tell by all the max HP scalings, and infinite permanent HP stacks)_. Thats just the way it is, allowing him the choice and easy adaptability to be either Tank **OR** AP **OR** AD is too strong for a champ who was originally intended as a meat-shield with tons of CC. How would you like it if Yasuo could just switch and become AP or suddenly turn himself into a tank? It'd kinda screw with your build and game-perception huh? How are you supposed to counter pick that? Champs have a purpose that they were originally designed for, most champs have some degree of variation _(I.e Glass cannon Karthus or sustained DPS Karthus.)_, but for one champ to have the choice between being full AP, full AD or full Tank is too much. It provides too much safety for bad picking decisions. Why would you pick a champ like LB who can only do one thing, and build one way, when you can just pick Sion and build however the f*ck you want whenever the mood suits, and perform just as well? Hardly fair to LB's team. I'm sorry the champ you like happens to be a Tank, I really am. But he was originally designed as a Tank/fighter, not an AP nuke champ. I happen to like Kindred, very much so, I'm annoyed she isn't an AP mid lane mage. But thats just the way it is. ______________ Having different champs with different jobs makes the game interesting, not the other way around. If any champ could just build however they wanted, why even bother having multiple champs? Notice how the Justice league and Avengers are filled with a variety of different superheroes? It's cos a team of just Superman or just Dr Strange wouldn't be that interesting to watch. Sion just happens to be the Hulk in this situation, he's a huge buff thing thats hard to kill and does some hefty damage while soaking up aggro. He cant be Batman and Green Lantern as well. _**P.S. I like Phase Rush.**_ _Do you know how strong slows are these days?_
I'm not sure about atkspeed jungle nami, but Rageblade onhit Janna top is a thing (just remember to always ban akali). Also every time riot tries to forcefully pigeonhole something to stop players from being creative, or playing the game in their unique way, I feel like quitting league just a little more. When they nerfed Ap tristana... why? she already had very very low ap ratios, and in the mobility and cast time creep, her w is certainly not a safe escape. Ap tristana was almost dead except for URF where she was still underwhelming. Or when they cut leona's solo damage, forcing it into her passive, and ruining all the fun for ap Leona jungle enthusiasts. League gets very stale very quickly without the odd game with a strange build, or at least the undercurrent thought that, if you wanted to, you could try. League is already pretty linear, it's very familiar, so what's wrong with the odd strange build to spice things up, so long as it isn't too strong, it makes you feel more like it's your game.
: I must admit they have seemed kinda dead of late. Things seem to get a lot of views _(if the counter on the sides can be believed)_, but no one has the will to respond. Posts used to get like 200 views, but 25 comments. Now most posts break 1k views but have 0 comments. There used to be the 'regulars' that came to the boards all the time and participated in lots of the conversations, as well as a lot of people who participated in a few conversations every now and then, but not often enough to be recognised personalities, and together the community wasn't large but it was certainly lively. Now the majority of posts are ban appeal pleas, and everyone knows those are dead-end posts to begin with. The regulars have given up, and everyone else comes to the boards just to check announcements. I haven't had a good rumble with Talon12 for months... what is this? xD **I think you're right, season 8 has killed everyone's excitement in the game.** For one thing, nothing stays the same long enough anymore for anyone to have an opinion on it anyway. It used to be that a single champ got a slight stat change, and we would have a 50 comment long thread on it that'd stick around for weeks. Now something massive gets changed _(like an entire time pool)_ and everyone just thinks _"Eughh thats a bit shit, but nvm, ill just wait for them to rework it again next month."_ I honestly don't know why they see the need to change the game so much so quickly now. And when they do change things, they never address the problem directly, _"Some ADC's are too strong? Better rework the entire item-pool instead of clipping a few wings here and there."_, "What? Some mages were pokey in lane? What's that? Re-work the entire mana system? Good idea Jeff!". Like I understand they don't want to play whack-a-mole with problem champs. But their attitude atm seems to be _'when one mole pops up, ignore it and use the hammer to smash in and dent all the other holes so no more moles can pop up.'_. Season 8 isn't as bad to play in as the tank meta, but it's killing the game much more effectively.
personally I thought the issue with tank meta was a combination of courage of the broken and the fact that tank item gold efficiency was too high, as well as some particularly overtuned abusers. The meta was actually kind of interesting... for about 2 weeks, but the issue was the tank meta lasted waaayyy longer. There are definitely too many changes to discuss at the moment, but alot of us are also burdened by university workloads and jobs and such. League's community is getting older, with more responsibilities, and less time rich youths to maintain a baseline level of activity here. I haven't been on the boards much for a while, and that's not due to lack of love for this community, as flawed as we are, but uni's been taking priority, in the same way I'd imagine is the case for many others.
: Dunno about season 8 but the last few days have definitely been slow. Couldn't tell you why though.
game is dying, not nearly dead, but right now University and Highschool workloads are picking up, so assuming that our ageing community is reaching that stage in life, it's understandable that things get quiet around this time. We have alot less young players with fewer responsibilities and commitments to smooth out these times. Hence ebb and flow.
: I remember the discussion you're talking about, and can't find it so I can only assume it has been deleted, but I assure you it wasn't by a mod. We only delete posts when the content of the post breaks the rules, not the comments. We might lock the thread if things really spiral but we don't delete for that.
the post itself wasn't very high quality but it was a passable start to a good conversation that other members in the community commandeered, and he ranted in the comments, but for the most part we ignored him. In retrospect his screenshot could be considered name and shame, but again, most of us ignored him and were discussing if say banning a team mates last pick hover Yasou is alright, or if we're first pick, is having our champion banned from us, bannable, and where do we draw the line? So yeah I guess his post probably broke some rules, and we're just salty that our comments were lost into the drainhole of good comments on posts that were destined to be deleted.
: I'm more than a little confused as to the context of your comment. No posts were removed, only his comment. A comment that had no content except "Shut up no one cares what you have to say you ignorant ahole". Noone was arguing that the discussion was invalid or not worth having. In fact that comment wasn't even on the thread about banning teammate picks, it was on a thread about the punishment system. In fact, the guy has only ever had one comment, that was one line and existed solely as an insult, actually removed, ever. How is that heavy handed?
personally I don't care about him, his rude comments are the least of my concerns, such vulgar and unproductive language is very reasonable to censor. The issue was *everyone else* was discussing the validity of team-self-bans, and the thread started in a very valid fashion. Maybe he ended up being inappropriate, but the initial post starting the thread sparked reasonable discussion, and I'm a little put out, that the rest of the discussion was lost.
: TO RIOT
even if the conversation wasn't very well presented, the argument over whether banning a teammates pick was valid or if combined with sufficient harassment deserves a report, is quite a contentious debate, with alot of potential for exploration. Personally I'm still not sure about whether this should be reportable or even bannable. Since whilst banning a champion to deny the enemy team seems perfectly reasonable. Banning out the first pick of the game, and goading a teammate seems like poor sportsmanship and harassment. A reasonable arguement is that having a pregame report feature should also be available, since I don't want to have to play with that abusive teammate to have the option to report him and protect the rest of the community from such abuse without having to play with the cockroach and lose lp. Riot's volunteers need to stop being so stuck up and heavy handed. Asking the thread creator to restructure and improve the thread post is a much more appropriate response.
Nightjar (OCE)
: chrysalis is an underrated ball of stats, and bone plating is about being aggressive without necessarily dismounting. Bone plating is to ensure you don't get dismounted as much (very bad state to be in) when fighting in lane and is more of a lane bully rune than a fighting or poking one. Bone plating is about looking at it's cooldown, and thinking, in 5s bone plating cooldown will be up, which means I need to prepare wave so I don't take as much minion aggro when I do go for a trade. Bone plating provides a brief window where trades are heavily in your favour (provided you don't take minion aggro), and is very much in the 'lane bully' rather than kill lane fashion. You're aiming to take good trades to the point where your opponent cannot contest when you take cs or deny them. Scorch is okay for short trades, but typically Kled isn't a poke champion and he doesn't have much range, so it doesn't really help with short trades as much as bone plating would. Sudden impact is better for extended trading, and is very very powerful on champions who can use it (in lower elo, this keystone is very underrated, and is very strong when used early even on supports like leona and alistair). Celerity does have some syngery with kled. Since it would give him some extra damage on his ult, and the bonus movespeed on his passive does give a little extra ad, but typically celerity is actually taken for the bonus % movespeed, which kled doesn't have alot of base movespeed, so the reward is rather low. Statwise, you'd be getting alot more out of chyrsalis until the much later stages of the game. Also zombie ward is really good for kled, since he often has issues with being able to establish vision control, since whilst dismounted he is very weak, and this makes warding doubly dangerous for kled. I like theory crafting and running numbers, and looking at playstyles. Scorch only really works with your trap rope, and that cooldown is rather important for making sure kled can get off his trading combo, so using it as poke makes you a bit vulnerable. Also you shouldn't often try to lane with kled dismounted so much. Kled's unmounted form is slow and doesn't have as much damage, cc or escape tools, and whilst good for baiting enemies, is very risky. Similar to nautilus, mordekaiser, and nasus , as you climb, you'll encounter issues with enemies who will freeze the lane on your immobile slow champion, and if you try to push up, you will be exploited by enemy jungle. In higher elo gameplay, you'll see that when a kled gets dismounted, he'll either be under tower or recalling unless he has jungler to push the lane out for him, and even then sometimes against assassin junglers, the Kled will cede the minion wave to the jungler, because it is too dangerous for kled to be extended so far.
I am not an expert on Kled, hell I'm stuck in silver 2 on my main, and have never been higher than gold 4 on any account, I'm awful at league, but those are some observations from watching high elo gameplay, commentaries and just looking at how runes would work with his kit. I might be wrong, but this is as best i could advise.
00shots00 (OCE)
: i take celerity because as an aggressive player i'm de-mounted a lot of the time, and while off your mount you gain MS while moving towards enemies which does give a good amount of AD for just being off your mount plus the added true damage from all of that with conquer. these runes did have the highest win rate for kled for about 4 patches so i tried it and the early aggressive game i play it has helped. taking the resolve tree i felt really weak will off mount
chrysalis is an underrated ball of stats, and bone plating is about being aggressive without necessarily dismounting. Bone plating is to ensure you don't get dismounted as much (very bad state to be in) when fighting in lane and is more of a lane bully rune than a fighting or poking one. Bone plating is about looking at it's cooldown, and thinking, in 5s bone plating cooldown will be up, which means I need to prepare wave so I don't take as much minion aggro when I do go for a trade. Bone plating provides a brief window where trades are heavily in your favour (provided you don't take minion aggro), and is very much in the 'lane bully' rather than kill lane fashion. You're aiming to take good trades to the point where your opponent cannot contest when you take cs or deny them. Scorch is okay for short trades, but typically Kled isn't a poke champion and he doesn't have much range, so it doesn't really help with short trades as much as bone plating would. Sudden impact is better for extended trading, and is very very powerful on champions who can use it (in lower elo, this keystone is very underrated, and is very strong when used early even on supports like leona and alistair). Celerity does have some syngery with kled. Since it would give him some extra damage on his ult, and the bonus movespeed on his passive does give a little extra ad, but typically celerity is actually taken for the bonus % movespeed, which kled doesn't have alot of base movespeed, so the reward is rather low. Statwise, you'd be getting alot more out of chyrsalis until the much later stages of the game. Also zombie ward is really good for kled, since he often has issues with being able to establish vision control, since whilst dismounted he is very weak, and this makes warding doubly dangerous for kled. I like theory crafting and running numbers, and looking at playstyles. Scorch only really works with your trap rope, and that cooldown is rather important for making sure kled can get off his trading combo, so using it as poke makes you a bit vulnerable. Also you shouldn't often try to lane with kled dismounted so much. Kled's unmounted form is slow and doesn't have as much damage, cc or escape tools, and whilst good for baiting enemies, is very risky. Similar to nautilus, mordekaiser, and nasus , as you climb, you'll encounter issues with enemies who will freeze the lane on your immobile slow champion, and if you try to push up, you will be exploited by enemy jungle. In higher elo gameplay, you'll see that when a kled gets dismounted, he'll either be under tower or recalling unless he has jungler to push the lane out for him, and even then sometimes against assassin junglers, the Kled will cede the minion wave to the jungler, because it is too dangerous for kled to be extended so far.
00shots00 (OCE)
: Lets talk about difference thoughts on how a game is won.
get a jungle or mid duo, alternatively, find a smurf, or look for better scaling toplaners and try contesting tri-vision as blue, and a deep ward on blue as redside. The extra little cheese and map control will really help snowball and accelerate the game. Consistent small cheeses can really help get past small roadblocks at certain elos. Also Kled's best runes are Conqueror into Resolve's bone plating (survive trades) and chrysalis (extra hp is good for fighting early, and extra ad is better for fighting mid-late, generally good stat value rune for fighters) for tough matchups, or Conqueror into Domination's sudden impact (burst) and ghost ward (easy vision control) against weak early laners. Also Kled tends to work really well with last stand since alot of his all in fighting drops Skarl's hp bar pretty low. Use what works for you, but always consider why you take certain runes, and whether any other runes better suit the matchup or your playstyle. Extra movespeed is nice for roams, and scorch is good for short trades, but is this best for Kled?
Gehirn (OCE)
: Hi Kìt. You're still making progress on your honour level, but it is slow. You tend to regularly have games where you'll spin up an argument with other members of your team (or the opposing team) and keep them going until the end of the game. Calling people names and telling them to "fuck up" is also not helping. You get reported a lot (not in the top percentile or anything, but way above average). Looking at those reports your teammates regularly reckon you're holding the team back, talking about things like "wasting everyone's time, negative and giving up attitude, abusive swearing, abusing the opposing team", stuff like that. You've not been penalized for any of this yet, but it is slowing down your honour progression. My advice would be to stop making excuses or complaining about the game in chat and getting into arguments. You just gotta show up and play. You can communicate with other people, and yeah sometimes they'll take it the wrong way - such is text chat. But when they do, firing back at them is not what most people do. The person with a high honour rating will be the person who, when that happens, they just shrug it off, mute, play the game out, and report if they feel it's justified. Totally neutral behaviour, nothing overly positive required.
just curious, at what honour level checkpoint is OCE's most honourable player atm?
HeartVine (OCE)
: > Why is it teams use their Junglers as a scapegoat? Quite imply, it's easy for them to blame the one person on the team who isn't laning, particularly when that person has taken on a position that is responsible for assisting all their teammates during the laning phase. They find it easier to just blame the person who wasn't there, than to take responsibility for their own actions and accept they did something stupid. They think they're gods, and that everyone else is dragging them down, when really they're just sh!t. > My thoughts are is it possible for this game to not be toxic at all? I'd say that's a definite no. Not even considering that LoL is likely within it's last few years of viable play, it's just how people are to be toxic. You see it all the time in society. When it comes down to it, there is not a single person who has ever been completely non-toxic. Everyone has their flaws, but some are better at controlling them. When it comes down to it, you also need to consider that this is the internet, which provides people with an astounding amount of anonymity, which just makes it easier to be absolute d!cks to others, since they don't have to deal with the consequences as they would IRL. Bottom line, nothing will ever be free of toxicity, the best we can do is strive for something near that.
when the support has ganked top more than the jungler, I feel I have a right to complain. Also support roams have a anecdotal 100% (n=9) chance to cause Silver Yasou's to disconnect within the minute thereafter, it's very funny. As a support, I don't expect junglers to come and win the lane, I'm confident I can do that alone; but if you aren't putting pressure bot for early dragons, and mid is difficult to gank, then I expect you to at least help out our toplaner. It's the longest lane, it's a lane where vision control is very stable, and it can snowball very hard. If you don't have a kill, assist, or at least blew a few flash cooldowns, you're just deadweight.
: thanks for your comment. i cant really think of a comp in this situation that wouldnt be able to execute what i said - can you think of one? and also competence of your team cant be a factor in evaluating what is correct (the point of this video) however in general you should always go with the bulk of your team (in this case, inhib) cause it gives the highest chance of success (one bad decision committed to is greater than a split decision). if you take inhib you never ward baron before reset cause it gives enemy team too much time to get to pit and sure you will see them get a free baron but what good is that if you cant contest? i actually think that taking baron is much safer than forcing inhib for the reasons outlined in my video.
blue trinket (most teams should have one)? also janna should have enough movespeed to be able to get a ward down, recall and reset, in time for a contest at baron. Realistically if you have control over the map beyond river, you should probably have a control ward on baron anyway.
: Sometimes Baron is Better Than Inhib
I feel like the baron > inhib arguement, is only really valid, if 2 conditions are met: 1. you have a siege comp and ways to counter enemy engage attempts 2. your team isn't incompetent otherwise, it's just safer bank your bets, get inhib, ward baron, reset and play it safe.
ThatsBS (OCE)
: So what would be the easiest?
hmm depends on what your strength is. For instance, if you're good at duelists and measuring up in a 1v1, I'd say top. Pick a midgame fighter and splitpush your way to victory. If you have good mechanics and remember to roam, mid, take a dump on the enemy adc since they will have 0 peel. If you're good at taking game momentum and running wild with a snowball, jungle. Make the enemy team ff at 15 because their jungle is afk farming whilst you proceed to oneshot anyone who forgets to hug tower. If you're good at tanks and knowing exactly how much you can do, support tank with ignite. If your adc complains that you haven't given him an assist, mute him. If you're good at mage/enchanter supports, still take ignite. If you somehow get a competent adc, you'll naturally support them. If they're bad, shields aren't terrible and full ap sona/lulu/karma is still a thing. If you're good at last hitting and positioning... probably still don't play adc without a reliable duo support.
: Whats the hardest role for lowElo?
depends on how you play the role. If you play support with the assumption you have an adc, then support. Jungle, your laners won't understand jungle pressure, but on the other hand, enemy laners won't ward either. But generally, adc is hardest since you don't have a support, and low elo players like assassins.
: the sht about it that so many things of riot to make the comunity less toxic and now even minions laugh in your face when you die and to be srsly i hate when my minions do it too is just cancerous if want make kids things atleast make only for who want lol
somebody got outplayed by minions a few too many times. C'mon they're adorable.
: what about kindred and khazix
kindred lacks range, and so she only scales in shortrange fighting teamcomps, in range poke siege fights without a strong engage comp, she falls off very hard once midgame ends. Khazix scales very well and is alot more flexible than Kindred, he spikes hardest midgame, but he's probably the best lategame assassin jungler.
: i thought ivern was early game
depends on teamcomp, ivern's stat fall off, but his utility scales, and if the team lacks that, it can be very necessary.
00shots00 (OCE)
: why not buff berserkers instead of nerfing ninja tabis >.<
because they're trying to make us forget about that item. Adcs are supposed to build swifties, merc treads or ionian boots now.
Nightjar (OCE)
: naut uses his e slow and he aims to choose the length of trades, you force teemo to either blind your passive, in which case w shifts the trade to your favour, or he holds blind, in which case you get passive damage, and then use w to mitigate damage as you disengage. Teemo needs his q to mitigate your passive, he also needs it to stop you using w's onhit on him, he also needs it to help him do significant damage that won't get reduced by doran's shield, and in the end, even though teemo 'q' is a counter, it can't do all of these simultaneously, and thus teemo loses big trades. Also for teemo to survive extended duels with nautilus, he greatly relies on q max to block nautilus's autos, but this also means he is unable to effectively harass nautilus and use the range advantage. Also onto teemo passive usage, dragging the minions top of the lane with your shield buffer really sets up a big advantage for nautilus. When facing a teemo dragging the minion wave topside gives you a significant advantage in the range vs melee tethering length, and often as a melee laner, you'd do this at the expense of a reasonable chunk of hp, however naut can use his shield cooldown early to drag the minion wave towards the bushes, which makes it an untenable strategy for teemo to deploy from the bushes, since you would be hooking him into minion aggro, and this would make early trades swing decidedly in nautilus's favour. With the changes to minion aggro, single target spells such as teemo q draws minion aggro, so if the lane is drawn upwards, then a well timed nautilus hook can stop teemo from breaking aggro and be devastating as teemo takes twice as much damage from minions alone, since he would be focused by the caster line. This also would have a doubley painful effect in pushing his lane even harder in than the naut e, which would mean that teemo would have lost a trade and be pushed. If you let the minion wave drift downwards, or didn't have enough mana to drag it upwards, then the lane does indeed favour teemo. Since teemo can abuse passive and a nautilus hook+auto would actually take caster+melee aggro, and hence teemo would be taking less minion aggro damage. However a good nautilus shouldn't be losing the dragging war, since it's basically laners trading hp to get the bulk of the minions to break on either the upperside or lowerside of the lane, and nautilus's high base resistances and shield ability should allow him to expend more hp than teemo can when dragging the wave. Also again, you'll be freezing and denying for alot of the lane since teemo shrooms can be used as a tool to force pushes back, maintaining a good freeze, so when time does come for a gank, dropping a control ward or red trinket in the middle of the jungler's path can make it easy for them to get to teemo, since the path is pretty simple since 'most cc in the game' isn't an exaggeration, without a dash or blink, teemo will be locked down pretty well. Teemo shrooms are vision control tools, they don't ensure safety. Also people often neglect to notice this, but lane shrooms can be just as much of a detriment to teemo than they are to his enemies, and nautilus is especially good at dragging minion waves around with his substantial short cd shield on w. Basically Naut w defines the matchup, and it's not about teemo vs nautilus's sheer stats, it's about how each one of them tries to control minion waves, and who has better minion wave control. Teemo's tools are his passive, the speed he can push, his blind denial, and his ranged harass. Nautilus's tools are his AoE, the speed he can also push, base damages, his cc, his engage, and the massive low cooldown shield he has (having a cheap shield is a huge factor in earlytrades, and combining it with aftershock, means most mid length trades will fail to break it). If you've ever been hooked into a bad spot and rooted by a nautilus you'll know that earlygame being pulled out of position and locked down whilst an array of casters attacks you can hurt alot. Also teemo isn't usually a bulky lifesteal duelist, so I don't think he does too well against naut's base damages lategame. A lategame naut can near enough burst a mage or adc, and only really has issues against tanks with better scaling or duelists like jax, fiora and garen (imo nautilus's worst lane, you lose early, you lose late, and even with a huge lead, being the villian means you can't fight him at all).
also I see you've said nautilus is slow and immobile. Nautilus hook is about as fast as blitzcrank in terms of the initial launch and latch, it's not really something you can dodge without a fast dash or blink, and nautilus slow means you'll be moving just about as slow as he is.
: > [{quoted}](name=Nightjar,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=ZdxFR6KE,comment-id=000100000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-31T03:03:35.775+0000) > > I used to play alot of teemo, and I currently play alot of naut in the support/top role, and actually a major defining point of the matchup is naut&#x27;s w and teemo&#x27;s q, these two abilities make or break the matchup. > > Doran&#x27;s shield, naut&#x27;s passive and e allow naut to match teemo&#x27;s minion wave control, allowing naut to maintain an effective freeze without getting harassed out too hard by teemo poison, this puts teemo in very high danger to a gank since whilst w gives teemo movement speed, it isn&#x27;t true mobility and if teemo gets slowed or cc&#x27;d he&#x27;s done for. However, let&#x27;s assume that naut&#x27;s junglers mistakenly thinks top is a lost cause and is focusing on bot; naut is still very hard to gank due to his cc and teemo&#x27;s lack of it, and so the lane enters a stage of teemo being pushed and naut freezing. > > In this matchup Naut generally would max w&gt;e&gt;q instead of his normal skillmax e&gt;w&gt;q. Now with this skillmax and playstyle alot of the power comes from naut&#x27;s empowered autos, and the fact that e and q will allow him to stick to teemo who lacks the burst to break through w max naut, and that unless teemo maxs q, the blind will run out and teemo will take considerable damage through naut&#x27;s empowered autos and e. If teemo does max q, then teemo now doesn&#x27;t have the lane pressure to harass naut through his dorans shield and spectre cowl, and the moment teemo uses q as a denial or poke tool, naut will look for an engage with hook. Another important feature of this lane is controlling bush vision and drawing minions to the upperside of the lane to give nautilus a more clear way of engaging and also preventing teemo from harassing naut from under tower, since a hook root under tower is deadly. > > Naut wins this lane through lane mechanic features, and the fact that teemo lacks the kit required to fight nautilus toe-to-toe. It&#x27;s more about the fact that nautilus can deny and zone and pressure kills, than nautilus actually killing teemo (though this can happen if teemo doesn&#x27;t understand the matchup). If played right, the lane should be in Nautilus&#x27;s favour, and eventually naut even outscales teemo through his high utility in fights as engage, tank, peel and naut still wins fights in the sidelanes lategame due to items such as adaptive helm, sunfire and abyssal, and mid/earlygame spectre cowl and adaptive helm make teemo&#x27;s damage negligible. > > Teemo&#x27;s strength in this matchup is mana efficiency, as any mistakes from naut tend to drain his mana more than anything else, and also positioning inside the minion wave to discourage an engage by trying to draw the minion waves down and closer to river and using bushes for extra atkspeed when naut moves up for melee or cannon minions, but teemo&#x27;s weaknesses in the matchups are lack of ways to harass nautilus as hard as alot of teemo&#x27;s favourable matchups, the fact that nautilus has priority in selecting fights due to the difference in cc and kit, and the fact that the entire laning phase, teemo has to consider that he is very overextended against a laner that has the most cc in the game. > > Whilst the 1v1 is close, only slightly favouring nautilus if played correctly, another big factor is teemo has no way to escape a gank short of hopefully a flash, and post-6 even that isn&#x27;t happening. Basically Teemo is a very poor pick into Nautilus. Unfortunately you are only mentioning about best scenarios for naut. I want to ask you. How can you manage minion waves when you get counterpicked??? There is a lot of small bushes in top lane so teemo is free to evade minions aggros whenever he harass him with e auro + aery. And how are you going to set up an auto in first place when all teemo has to do is use q and naut simply cant proc his passive . It is basically a losing trade for him all the time. Ok you might have a control in setting up ganks lvl6 onwards. But think of farm you waste and honeslty teemo uses shrooms right, it is not easily gankabke lane.
naut uses his e slow and he aims to choose the length of trades, you force teemo to either blind your passive, in which case w shifts the trade to your favour, or he holds blind, in which case you get passive damage, and then use w to mitigate damage as you disengage. Teemo needs his q to mitigate your passive, he also needs it to stop you using w's onhit on him, he also needs it to help him do significant damage that won't get reduced by doran's shield, and in the end, even though teemo 'q' is a counter, it can't do all of these simultaneously, and thus teemo loses big trades. Also for teemo to survive extended duels with nautilus, he greatly relies on q max to block nautilus's autos, but this also means he is unable to effectively harass nautilus and use the range advantage. Also onto teemo passive usage, dragging the minions top of the lane with your shield buffer really sets up a big advantage for nautilus. When facing a teemo dragging the minion wave topside gives you a significant advantage in the range vs melee tethering length, and often as a melee laner, you'd do this at the expense of a reasonable chunk of hp, however naut can use his shield cooldown early to drag the minion wave towards the bushes, which makes it an untenable strategy for teemo to deploy from the bushes, since you would be hooking him into minion aggro, and this would make early trades swing decidedly in nautilus's favour. With the changes to minion aggro, single target spells such as teemo q draws minion aggro, so if the lane is drawn upwards, then a well timed nautilus hook can stop teemo from breaking aggro and be devastating as teemo takes twice as much damage from minions alone, since he would be focused by the caster line. This also would have a doubley painful effect in pushing his lane even harder in than the naut e, which would mean that teemo would have lost a trade and be pushed. If you let the minion wave drift downwards, or didn't have enough mana to drag it upwards, then the lane does indeed favour teemo. Since teemo can abuse passive and a nautilus hook+auto would actually take caster+melee aggro, and hence teemo would be taking less minion aggro damage. However a good nautilus shouldn't be losing the dragging war, since it's basically laners trading hp to get the bulk of the minions to break on either the upperside or lowerside of the lane, and nautilus's high base resistances and shield ability should allow him to expend more hp than teemo can when dragging the wave. Also again, you'll be freezing and denying for alot of the lane since teemo shrooms can be used as a tool to force pushes back, maintaining a good freeze, so when time does come for a gank, dropping a control ward or red trinket in the middle of the jungler's path can make it easy for them to get to teemo, since the path is pretty simple since 'most cc in the game' isn't an exaggeration, without a dash or blink, teemo will be locked down pretty well. Teemo shrooms are vision control tools, they don't ensure safety. Also people often neglect to notice this, but lane shrooms can be just as much of a detriment to teemo than they are to his enemies, and nautilus is especially good at dragging minion waves around with his substantial short cd shield on w. Basically Naut w defines the matchup, and it's not about teemo vs nautilus's sheer stats, it's about how each one of them tries to control minion waves, and who has better minion wave control. Teemo's tools are his passive, the speed he can push, his blind denial, and his ranged harass. Nautilus's tools are his AoE, the speed he can also push, base damages, his cc, his engage, and the massive low cooldown shield he has (having a cheap shield is a huge factor in earlytrades, and combining it with aftershock, means most mid length trades will fail to break it). If you've ever been hooked into a bad spot and rooted by a nautilus you'll know that earlygame being pulled out of position and locked down whilst an array of casters attacks you can hurt alot. Also teemo isn't usually a bulky lifesteal duelist, so I don't think he does too well against naut's base damages lategame. A lategame naut can near enough burst a mage or adc, and only really has issues against tanks with better scaling or duelists like jax, fiora and garen (imo nautilus's worst lane, you lose early, you lose late, and even with a huge lead, being the villian means you can't fight him at all).
Nightjar (OCE)
: the issue is if you're still 0/0/0 at 16min with no objective participation... Alot of the game is decided in the first 12min, and if you're only doing rotations, you're putting your team at a large disadvantage, since only one side has jungle pressure. A good jungler will actively contribute even just pressure to lanes, since unless you're doing something wrong, clearing jungle camps and rotations should only take about 60% of your time. What else are you doing during that remaining 40%?, controlling river vision? matching and tracking the enemy jungler? looking for a gank or ways to pressure a lane? providing a lane priority so that it can safely clear wards and establish their own defensive warding? Alot of junglers will do none of this, and they deserve to be flamed. Lanes aren't always shoved to tower either, whilst you're clearing camps, you should be looking at lane pressure and minion wave timings, maybe considering skipped two camps, ganking top as it bounces out and extends, and then wrapping around again to pickup the wolves and gromp you skipped and then recalling. You're acting like jungle camps are super hard to kite and clear, and take so long to do, and that it's unreasonable to expect the jungler to contribute pressure to lanes, but really a jungle main should be able to take literally any champion and kite out a relatively fast clear with just the starting items and still have enough capacity left to play hearthstone whilst doing it. The hard part of jungling is the macroplay and establishing good pressure and rotations, adapting this to consider lane priority, vision, incoming minion waves and powerspikes. Killing jungle camps is the easy bit.
also if you're the type of jungler who waits on the spot for 40-50s for their jungle camps to spawn, stop, don't play jungle.
: hey can you stop flaming junglers for not ganking
the issue is if you're still 0/0/0 at 16min with no objective participation... Alot of the game is decided in the first 12min, and if you're only doing rotations, you're putting your team at a large disadvantage, since only one side has jungle pressure. A good jungler will actively contribute even just pressure to lanes, since unless you're doing something wrong, clearing jungle camps and rotations should only take about 60% of your time. What else are you doing during that remaining 40%?, controlling river vision? matching and tracking the enemy jungler? looking for a gank or ways to pressure a lane? providing a lane priority so that it can safely clear wards and establish their own defensive warding? Alot of junglers will do none of this, and they deserve to be flamed. Lanes aren't always shoved to tower either, whilst you're clearing camps, you should be looking at lane pressure and minion wave timings, maybe considering skipped two camps, ganking top as it bounces out and extends, and then wrapping around again to pickup the wolves and gromp you skipped and then recalling. You're acting like jungle camps are super hard to kite and clear, and take so long to do, and that it's unreasonable to expect the jungler to contribute pressure to lanes, but really a jungle main should be able to take literally any champion and kite out a relatively fast clear with just the starting items and still have enough capacity left to play hearthstone whilst doing it. The hard part of jungling is the macroplay and establishing good pressure and rotations, adapting this to consider lane priority, vision, incoming minion waves and powerspikes. Killing jungle camps is the easy bit.
: > [{quoted}](name=Nightjar,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=ZdxFR6KE,comment-id=0001000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-03-30T14:01:30.830+0000) > > the teemo matchup is all about powerspikes, for instance your lvl2 and lvl3 are better, you also get a nice opportunity to kill at lvl6, and any jungle ganks are basically guaranteed kills. After a few items the game gets even worse for teemo, start doran&#x27;s shield, rush spectre cowl, adaptive helm, bami cinder, abyssal, so long as you play around powerspikes (and realistically you have the initiative in this lane since you have cc and teemo is mostly immobile, so you choose the fights), teemo has a very hard time, since he both loses lane and gets outscaled. > > Personally I like going aftershock and resolve into either domination(for sudden impact and ghost poro) if the enemy jungle has low pressure, or sorcery (scorch and mana flow band) if I feel I&#x27;m going to need to fight regularly. Also this is a matchup where ignite helps, since even though you have the advantage in lane, you&#x27;ll generally need ignite for the extra pressure to give yourself a safe margin incase you screw up or just don&#x27;t want teemo flashing away when he realises he isn&#x27;t winning a fight. Unfortunately, teemo is not an immobile champion. Unfortunately , you havent met a good teemo yet. By getting doran blade and domination as secondary rune set, teemo can stay top lane forever . Also, good teemos will buy secondary boots for first item and max w after e . This gives him a tonne of mobility and it is impossible to close a gap with champs without dash. He is not a pick to be used in pro matches but definitely a great pick to be used as a top laner only you play him right. You are right about aftershock (which I often use when i get counterpicked in top lane), but idk immobile champs with low movement speed against decent teemo and jayce match up? I AM NOT SURE.
I used to play alot of teemo, and I currently play alot of naut in the support/top role, and actually a major defining point of the matchup is naut's w and teemo's q, these two abilities make or break the matchup. Doran's shield, naut's passive and e allow naut to match teemo's minion wave control, allowing naut to maintain an effective freeze without getting harassed out too hard by teemo poison, this puts teemo in very high danger to a gank since whilst w gives teemo movement speed, it isn't true mobility and if teemo gets slowed or cc'd he's done for. However, let's assume that naut's junglers mistakenly thinks top is a lost cause and is focusing on bot; naut is still very hard to gank due to his cc and teemo's lack of it, and so the lane enters a stage of teemo being pushed and naut freezing. In this matchup Naut generally would max w>e>q instead of his normal skillmax e>w>q. Now with this skillmax and playstyle alot of the power comes from naut's empowered autos, and the fact that e and q will allow him to stick to teemo who lacks the burst to break through w max naut, and that unless teemo maxs q, the blind will run out and teemo will take considerable damage through naut's empowered autos and e. If teemo does max q, then teemo now doesn't have the lane pressure to harass naut through his dorans shield and spectre cowl, and the moment teemo uses q as a denial or poke tool, naut will look for an engage with hook. Another important feature of this lane is controlling bush vision and drawing minions to the upperside of the lane to give nautilus a more clear way of engaging and also preventing teemo from harassing naut from under tower, since a hook root under tower is deadly. Naut wins this lane through lane mechanic features, and the fact that teemo lacks the kit required to fight nautilus toe-to-toe. It's more about the fact that nautilus can deny and zone and pressure kills, than nautilus actually killing teemo (though this can happen if teemo doesn't understand the matchup). If played right, the lane should be in Nautilus's favour, and eventually naut even outscales teemo through his high utility in fights as engage, tank, peel and naut still wins fights in the sidelanes lategame due to items such as adaptive helm, sunfire and abyssal, and mid/earlygame spectre cowl and adaptive helm make teemo's damage negligible. Teemo's strength in this matchup is mana efficiency, as any mistakes from naut tend to drain his mana more than anything else, and also positioning inside the minion wave to discourage an engage by trying to draw the minion waves down and closer to river and using bushes for extra atkspeed when naut moves up for melee or cannon minions, but teemo's weaknesses in the matchups are lack of ways to harass nautilus as hard as alot of teemo's favourable matchups, the fact that nautilus has priority in selecting fights due to the difference in cc and kit, and the fact that the entire laning phase, teemo has to consider that he is very overextended against a laner that has the most cc in the game. Whilst the 1v1 is close, only slightly favouring nautilus if played correctly, another big factor is teemo has no way to escape a gank short of hopefully a flash, and post-6 even that isn't happening. Basically Teemo is a very poor pick into Nautilus.
: > [{quoted}](name=Nightjar,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=ZdxFR6KE,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-29T09:00:52.446+0000) > > nautilus isn&#x27;t exactly a guardian support, alot of what he provides in the support role is base damage and engage, since he has very little defensive peel or disengage. As a toplane, he uses his shield to trade, e to push and his hook to threaten engage, and he fits toplane alot better than he does support. > > Naut is bad vs healing toplaners actually, and has difficult matchups in Illaoi, Fiora, Garen, Darius, Olaf, Trundamere, Vlad and Swain, but Naut is very good at shutting down carry toplaners like Riven, Irelia, Camille, Pantheon, Quinn, Talon, Teemo, ect... Naut also fair decently well against his brethren tanks, since he typically outtrades them and scales just about the same, and his shield allows him to be more aggressive when fighting over minions in lane. How exactly naut shuts down anti melee and tanks. Cant imagine playing him vs champs like teeno. Ill rather go dodge or afk.
the teemo matchup is all about powerspikes, for instance your lvl2 and lvl3 are better, you also get a nice opportunity to kill at lvl6, and any jungle ganks are basically guaranteed kills. After a few items the game gets even worse for teemo, start doran's shield, rush spectre cowl, adaptive helm, bami cinder, abyssal, so long as you play around powerspikes (and realistically you have the initiative in this lane since you have cc and teemo is mostly immobile, so you choose the fights), teemo has a very hard time, since he both loses lane and gets outscaled. Personally I like going aftershock and resolve into either domination(for sudden impact and ghost poro) if the enemy jungle has low pressure, or sorcery (scorch and mana flow band) if I feel I'm going to need to fight regularly. Also this is a matchup where ignite helps, since even though you have the advantage in lane, you'll generally need ignite for the extra pressure to give yourself a safe margin incase you screw up or just don't want teemo flashing away when he realises he isn't winning a fight.
: nautalis is a guardian support main with a situational top lineup vs eg illoi
nautilus isn't exactly a guardian support, alot of what he provides in the support role is base damage and engage, since he has very little defensive peel or disengage. As a toplane, he uses his shield to trade, e to push and his hook to threaten engage, and he fits toplane alot better than he does support. Naut is bad vs healing toplaners actually, and has difficult matchups in Illaoi, Fiora, Garen, Darius, Olaf, Trundamere, Vlad and Swain, but Naut is very good at shutting down carry toplaners like Riven, Irelia, Camille, Pantheon, Quinn, Talon, Teemo, ect... Naut also fair decently well against his brethren tanks, since he typically outtrades them and scales just about the same, and his shield allows him to be more aggressive when fighting over minions in lane.
: > [{quoted}](name=Iloveyoubabygirl,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=ZdxFR6KE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-03-29T01:28:16.338+0000) > > or just build grevious wounds Or do both :D
or take ignite and play aggressively early, there alot of matchups where fiora just wins 1v1s in the midgame and lategame. For instance Fiora vs Nautilus 1v1s will always go in Fiora's favour in the mid and lategame, hence if you want to win lane, it's necessary to play aggressively with ignite early on, because you'll need to establish a lead here, because thornmail will only stem some of the haemorrhaging later on, really, once mid/lategame rolls around just teamfight.
: Yea.. thats what I said.. > Agreed with Seras here. It is a very **personal** thing. > When I say 'support' as the hardest role, I'm speaking _objectively_ > it's also highly dependant on what champs you play as well However, statistically there **will** be a role that more people struggle in than other roles. We don't know what that role is, that information isn't available. Hence the opinions. Yes all the roles have their easy parts and difficult parts, but unless every difficult part for every role is _exactly_ the same amount of 'difficult' _(which is basically impossible mathematically)_. There will be one that more people struggle in. And seeming that support is the position least people want to play, and so have much less experience in, It would be a fairly safe guess that people in general find that position harder and less attractive to play.
I assume that because support has the lowest playrate, and people autofilled support are often trash, and that support players often can flex into tank tops and tank jungles and some basic mage mids (not really very mechanical but they can at least function in the role if they pick something simple), whilst also not being the worst adcs since they have watched many adcs. Support requires a skillset that is very broad but not very deep, but it seems that this is hard for alot of players? Also if you aren't a tank support, taking hooks isn't always a good idea, but boy is it fun when a blizcrank pulls you into his team and you're an alistair or nautilus or leona, especially lategame.
: Kaboomblah's tip of the day!
hey sometimes during a very fight based midgame, when you're trying to pressure your lead, the extra time you can stay without recalling to restock wards, makes it worth consideration. Admittedly though, overall it's generally just a mistake because you miss sightstone and didn't notice, although I'll argue that against bushstrat teams, red trinket is better than red sweeper because of the extra range.
: Report at the end of the match, if you're in Draft Pick (which you should be, there's literally no reason to ever play Blind Pick) and someone takes your roll that was given you to by queuing and you don't agree with that, then you have grounds to report and they will suffer the consequences. Death threats typically use words that are picked up by the automatic banning system, if you think it's not working THEN REPORT AFTER THE MATCH LIKE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO.
these reports don't do anything. If they steal your role but aren't reportable for other reasons like toxicity, then nothing will happen. I've reported some people for role stealing in both drafts and ranked, and I've also reported for toxicity. I have yet to see a role thief I've reported get banned, but most of the people who are toxic enough for me to bother reporting have been banned. In riot's eyes role thieves aren't worth the effort.
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Nightjar

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