Essembie (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=JasonWazza,realm=OCE,application-id=T8eq2lFQ,discussion-id=oAjB0U0A,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-12T05:07:25.895+0000) > > I mean, if you look at any of the int feeder accounts, it takes upwards of 100's of games for them to actually be stopped. > > The argument is basically "it could just be a bad day for them" when really that argument doesn't fly with the technology riot has that can detect where deaths were.... but why would we try and prevent intent feeding? Their swear detection utilities are a lot more effective than their bot detection facilities.
> [{quoted}](name=Essembie,realm=OCE,application-id=T8eq2lFQ,discussion-id=oAjB0U0A,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-15T08:50:34.776+0000) > > Their swear detection utilities are a lot more effective than their bot detection facilities. Yeah, one exists the other doesn't.
Gehirn (OCE)
: You're part of the community, and how you choose to respond to negative players who threaten to AFK shapes the community as much as they do. Your massively abusive response was enough to warrant a permanent suspension. You're impacting the game of the 8 other players when you do that, not just the person you're hurling abuse at for wronging you, consider that. You might say that others who start negativity in game are the problem, not those who respond disproportionately, but you've been that person before and you've been punished for it. For example: [3:29] Pörtgas D Acé (Yasuo): im inting now [3:30] Pörtgas D Acé (Yasuo): idc [3:33] Pörtgas D Acé (Yasuo): bout this game Don't be that guy. Who wants to play with that guy? Other chat logs from you are just so disgusting I don't even want to post them. It's no wonder the community reported you 100 times in a single month. Your ban shows that instant feedback is indeed working, at least for the most serious cases of negativity and abuse against other players.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Gehirn,realm=OCE,application-id=T8eq2lFQ,discussion-id=HjzEOAEB,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-27T06:33:21.941+0000) > > Other chat logs from you are just so disgusting I don't even want to post them. It's no wonder the community reported you 100 times in a single month. Your ban shows that instant feedback is indeed working, at least for the most serious cases of negativity and abuse against other players. Really, you call 100 reports in a month "Instant feedback working?" Honestly you guys are drinking too much of your own kool-aid.
: Uhh, do you understand the resources they have to spend to get either of those done and that those are two different departments of people? It's like complaining they make new champions when there is no tribunal.
> [{quoted}](name=UltraFireFX,realm=OCE,application-id=pEj6Ee6n,discussion-id=pffdkI8z,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-02-26T02:34:09.049+0000) > > Uhh, do you understand the resources they have to spend to get either of those done and that those are two different departments of people? > > It's like complaining they make new champions when there is no tribunal. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/WuiG5a1Y-take-a-lesson-from-overwatch-make-a-funny-chat-filter?comment=001600050000000100000000000000000000 > [{quoted}](name=Ypherion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WuiG5a1Y,comment-id=001600050000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-23T06:01:32.985+0000) > > We still really, really want to have more direct player input into behavior. > > The old Tribunal had some serious problems from a tech, scalability and portability perspective. We didn't realize how bad it really was until we'd brought it down and started work on upgrading it. It's pretty much a total rewrite at this point. > > Work was well underway when we had to shift the people working on it to another project, but it's something we intend to get back to. Personally I hope it's soon, professionally I'm not sure when it will be. Ok, go read this, do some homework. This rioter is middle management in the Player Behaviour team, and yes, 8 months ago they moved staff from working on the Tribunal project onto another project, very easy with some digging to see that its the League client update. TLDR; **Yes riot have the PB team working on the League client update, not Tribunal **
mau5trap (OCE)
: FIX YOUR F*****G GAME!
Eh, recently had a daytime game in solo queue with a Platinum enemy ADC, everyone else being silver/bronze. It was a foregone conclusion, and it was very frustrating. But that's 1 game out of 20, I dont believe you are seeing 4 plat vs 4 bronze. And yeah I got autofilled 3 times during placements, again frustrating. League has a lot of problems, but Matchmaking isnt one of them imho.
Meddler (NA)
: I don't have surrender data available at the moment (posting from home since it's late here). From memory 5 man surrenders are fairly close in frequency to 4 man ones though. There are certainly issues with players looking to feed, troll etc sometimes. This change isn't intended to target those situations- surrendering earlier there is a slight bandaid at best on a bigger problem that we should be working on in other ways (reducing frequency of that behavior, not just reducing duration your game is ruined for before it ends). What we wanted to explore instead was whether there was value in letting a team end things early if they all agreed they wanted out. Even with really sportsman like players that will happen sometimes if things just don't go your way.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=3fteLeTW,discussion-id=AuVGdnPp,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-02-23T05:27:37.037+0000) > > I don't have surrender data available at the moment (posting from home since it's late here). From memory 5 man surrenders are fairly close in frequency to 4 man ones though. > > There are certainly issues with players looking to feed, troll etc sometimes. This change isn't intended to target those situations- surrendering earlier there is a slight bandaid at best on a bigger problem that we should be working on in other ways (reducing frequency of that behavior, not just reducing duration your game is ruined for before it ends). What we wanted to explore instead was whether there was value in letting a team end things early if they all agreed they wanted out. Even with really sportsman like players that will happen sometimes if things just don't go your way. I dont know, I feel there's very very few games where if 5 players are trying on each team that its not possible to comeback, I played a game today 12 v 36 kills, and 5 turrets behind, and a baron. We turned it around. I see it in high diamond there are lots of games that are lost at that point but given how many mistakes are made in low elo, I imagine its super rare for games not to still have fighting chance. Games with a troll or inting however are massively slanted against you from the start of the game, and there's very little chance to win a 4v6. Those are the ones I want to have an option to get out of, those are the ones that make you hate league. I think there is some value, but idk give us a /feeder vote option, open to all 10 players that ends the game, with 9 votes.
Maraudaur (OCE)
: Surrender @ 15 Q&A
How often are surrenders 5/5 vs 4/5? Is there any point testing a 5/5 required surrender, when its going to be such a tiny portion of games? This is aimed at fixing "bad" games, I presume you mostly mean games with trolls and feeders, This isn't a fix for those issues, do you have any data on how often trolling/inting players vote not to surrender? Games with intentional feeders and trolls are the ones we want to get out of, how does a 5/5 vote help us?
Rioter Comments
: Surrender at 15 available now
Requiring a 5 player Yes vote makes this useless.. One person will almost always hold the game hostage. If you actually want to test this make it 4/5 and then get some feedback. I cant see you getting anything remotely like valid feedback if it requires a 5/5 vote.
: Client Beta Update #2: Replacing the Legacy Client
Oh good, even more ways to buy skins, and still nothing about tribunal / trolling and toxicity.
: Is Autofill always on?
I saw this riot (click the icon below) saying you have a 1/20 chance of getting autofilled, can anyone tell me their experience? Obviously I've just started ranked but it seems like Autofill/ProtectedX2/Autofill/ProtectedX2/Autofill.. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/5euwdk/the_changes_to_autofill_result_in_role_weighting/dah0js7/
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Iosua Bot (OCE)
: This behaviour is disgusting
Reporting is like pissing into the wind, Review of a players behaviour can also take 50-100 games Well documented cases of people inting/trolling for two weeks, multiple games per day, and no action. The reporting system is ineffective, especially to do with any behaviour that's not chat based (cursing, racism, etc) If the players we're inting/trolling, I would suggest a using a ticket, and keep requesting that they forward it to a player behaviour specialist, and you get a response from that team. My experience is that will take you 2 or 3 separate replies no matter how you word the original ticket. They effectively use the support team to ignore nearly all the requests by sending you an canned response about reporting in the post game lobby.
Iosua Bot (OCE)
: This behaviour is disgusting
We cant see your tickets.
MrSkibble (OCE)
: Does anyone actually think the Malz rework is better?
He was fine after his initial rework, then riot did a mini rework in 6.27 or something and changed his voidlings, which made him clunky to play, hence a lot weaker. TLDR; initial rework great, mini rework shite
: Getting lots of trolls and afkers in Ranked Bronze
Bill most of us have been waiting two+ years for riot to do something else about the toxicity.. its not coming. They've moved Player behaviour staff onto other projects, like the new client There's no troll detection coming, there's no tribunal coming for at least a season most likely delayed forever.. and no they are not going to crank up ban's.. You either live with it or you quit. Honestly, I would go with quitting or at a minimum, never spend any money on a riot product.
Ninox (OCE)
: "Another Project" does not = LCU. In all likelihood it was a different PB project following the immense issues they were having with Tribunal and needing to prioritise other more safely impactful PB systems. Tribunal was a risk, and it caused problems so they removed it, hence the need for "a complete rewrite". Tribunal isn't the only thing the PB team is working on.
> [{quoted}](name=Seras Dragon,realm=OCE,application-id=T8eq2lFQ,discussion-id=33P6XQEe,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-06T06:20:53.548+0000) > > "Another Project" does not = LCU. In all likelihood it was a different PB project following the immense issues they were having with Tribunal and needing to prioritise other more safely impactful PB systems. > > Tribunal was a risk, and it caused problems so they removed it, hence the need for "a complete rewrite". Tribunal isn't the only thing the PB team is working on. One you might have missed.. http://boards.oce.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behaviour/lXBNketm-how-does-this-still-happen-fellow-player-inting?comment=0001
asfsggf (EUNE)
: Unspecified error occurred. Please check the logs for more information-Can't get it fixed
Yeah same thing, fixed it by changing my DNS to 8.8.8.8, however game crashed at first load-in and would not reconnect. Now the client's detected possible corruption and is downloading 4gb of patches. Hurray! 3 Hours!
Ninox (OCE)
: You clearly aren't one to be persuaded, and seem to think that new stuff magically appears out of thin air rather than time, effort, hard work and dedication. Riot is a company, and they have to make money to support their development, but they have proved time and time again that they care about their community. If you don't wish to see that then it is on you.
> [{quoted}](name=Seras Dragon,realm=OCE,application-id=T8eq2lFQ,discussion-id=33P6XQEe,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-06T12:16:08.741+0000) > > You clearly aren't one to be persuaded, and seem to think that new stuff magically appears out of thin air rather than time, effort, hard work and dedication. Riot is a company, and they have to make money to support their development, but they have proved time and time again that they care about their community. If you don't wish to see that then it is on you. I'm just stating they haven't delivered on Tribunal after two and a half years. And now they have moved staff off the project. Those are just the facts, If you want to give them a pass for that, its your prerogative. I wont be, There's a hundred posts a week asking them to do something about the toxic community.
Ninox (OCE)
: PB dev isn't exactly an easy job, and there's no established pattern to follow like there is for skins, so it's always a new feature they are working on which means there are a lot of iterations of a lot of different things before something gets scrapped/passed over/confirmed/completed. Funnily enough stuff like that takes time. Replays are something the PB team was involved in recently among what comes to mind. Far more likely the project they were moved to was the honour rework, or something in that vein of positive reinforcement, or some other system to supplement the automated one where it has it's weak points.
> [{quoted}](name=Seras Dragon,realm=OCE,application-id=T8eq2lFQ,discussion-id=33P6XQEe,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-06T11:48:52.017+0000) > > PB dev isn't exactly an easy job, and there's no established pattern to follow like there is for skins, so it's always a new feature they are working on which means there are a lot of iterations of a lot of different things before something gets scrapped/passed over/confirmed/completed. Funnily enough stuff like that takes time. > > Replays are something the PB team was involved in recently among what comes to mind. Far more likely the project they were moved to was the honour rework, or something in that vein of positive reinforcement, or some other system to supplement the automated one where it has it's weak points. Regardless, they haven't delivered on tribunal, which riot said was the next thing after the new champion select. so whatever they are working on is riots idoitic/money grubbing/etc priorities at work. They need to deliver on PB stuff, releasing no new info or systems in 2 and a half years just shows Riot dont really care about the toxic community, even though as I said there are hundreds of posts per week - going back years now - in PB asking for them to do something. Replay.gg worked fine. Nobody was asking for a prettier client. Rito Do your job, deliver on what your customers want.
Ninox (OCE)
: "Another Project" does not = LCU. In all likelihood it was a different PB project following the immense issues they were having with Tribunal and needing to prioritise other more safely impactful PB systems. Tribunal was a risk, and it caused problems so they removed it, hence the need for "a complete rewrite". Tribunal isn't the only thing the PB team is working on.
> [{quoted}](name=Seras Dragon,realm=OCE,application-id=T8eq2lFQ,discussion-id=33P6XQEe,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-06T06:20:53.548+0000) > > "Another Project" does not = LCU. In all likelihood it was a different PB project following the immense issues they were having with Tribunal and needing to prioritise other more safely impactful PB systems. > > Tribunal was a risk, and it caused problems so they removed it, hence the need for "a complete rewrite". Tribunal isn't the only thing the PB team is working on. Well since we're just totally spitballing, i think it was the client they we;re pulled off for, seems very likely the more posts you read. PB havent done anything in forever
Tele (OCE)
: Also just to add on to what **Seras** said, One of the biggest reasons to update the client was because it was _**holding back other projects**_. According to [**Riot Cactopus**](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/k6KVKAG3-league-client-update-qa-the-play-loop-now-complete?comment=000e0000), this new client will allow Riot "to make new features more quickly/efficiently". In the old client only one or two features could be added at a time, but now multiple teams can work on the new client at once without any issues. That means more features, faster. Building the client isn't holding up projects, it's a necessary step to make the projects. Especially the tribunal and new honour system which will likely be integrated into the new client.
> [{quoted}](name=Tele,realm=OCE,application-id=T8eq2lFQ,discussion-id=33P6XQEe,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2017-01-06T03:16:02.678+0000) > > Also just to add on to what **Seras** said, > > One of the biggest reasons to update the client was because it was _**holding back other projects**_. According to [**Riot Cactopus**](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/k6KVKAG3-league-client-update-qa-the-play-loop-now-complete?comment=000e0000), this new client will allow Riot "to make new features more quickly/efficiently". > > In the old client only one or two features could be added at a time, but now multiple teams can work on the new client at once without any issues. That means more features, faster. > > Building the client isn't holding up projects, it's a necessary step to make the projects. Especially the tribunal and new honour system which will likely be integrated into the new client. As posted above, see [this](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/WuiG5a1Y-take-a-lesson-from-overwatch-make-a-funny-chat-filter?comment=001600050000000100000000000000000000) Shifting staff to another project has definitely held it up. There's no reason tribunal needs to be coupled to the new client, its as I said, Riots brainless and irrelevant priorities. Cactopus's comment doesn't have any relevance to this discussion if you ask me, thats far to long a bow. Especially since Tribunal's a server-side function. And interesting Lyte said that it was the next thing being worked on after champ select (lmao) and it would be out early 2016 (ahahahhaha) I just hope League keeps losing customers and revenue to a point they actually listen to what the community keep begging for.
Ninox (OCE)
: The Player Behaviour teams and the teams that have been moved to the New Client are not the same.
> [{quoted}](name=Seras Dragon,realm=OCE,application-id=T8eq2lFQ,discussion-id=33P6XQEe,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-01-06T02:44:27.663+0000) > > The Player Behaviour teams and the teams that have been moved to the New Client are not the same. From my understanding this is the senior in charge of the relevant teams, and he says here that yes his staff have been moved onto another project, 5 months ago.. So unless you have something that says otherwise.. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/WuiG5a1Y-take-a-lesson-from-overwatch-make-a-funny-chat-filter?comment=001600050000000100000000000000000000
: Toxicity running rampant. "Blocking" a player needs to mean something.
> [{quoted}](name=pekalin,realm=OCE,application-id=T8eq2lFQ,discussion-id=33P6XQEe,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-05T23:56:55.473+0000) > > Riot ~~ We~~ need changes to this game that doesn't ruin other peoples fun just because one person decides they can. > Still no Tribunal, still no Troll detection, Int Detection so bad it may as well not exist. Still 20 minute surrender timers. Put the onus where it should be. Riots priorities are irrelevant and brainless.. "we have all our teams working on a new client because.. the client should look prettier*" Where's the threads clamouring for a visually updated client? They don't exist, however you'll find hundreds of new posts every week asking for something to be done about Trolls, feeders and toxicity. **Wake up Riot** *before you mention it, replay.gg worked just fine.
Xenoblade (OCE)
: Not a good impression for me Riot.
I agree wholeheartedly with your post, except for this. > [{quoted}](name=Xenoblade,realm=OCE,application-id=T8eq2lFQ,discussion-id=QFxTsRRh,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-12-19T20:01:45.666+0000) > > Now I'm obviously not blaming this on Riot, It is riots fault, and will continue to be riots fault until they spend some money and give us the tools to do something about feeders/trolls etc. That or as you say there is some MASSIVE improvement to the reporting system. In my opinion three years after removing tribunal, they haven't delivered on anything apart from the naughty word filter, which you know. was really solved when we got the mute button. Hopefully these problems start hitting their bottom line because no amount of posts asking for them to do something about trolls and feeders seems to have spurred any action in.. yeah 3/4 years..
Anıma (OCE)
: Obviously it's not good or healthy, I wish there were none but there are a plethora of reasons why trolls/afk's etc do what they do and it's something that a gaming company doesn't have much control over since it's the individual player and how they feel IRL. You ban them the first time they do it and you will have little-no players playing your game. People have bad days and play the game for a lot of different reasons so one day almost everyone will troll/afk. There's no good solution that Riot can implement that can fix the issue without banning it's entire player base. Every single person I have ever talked to about this issue has trolled or afk'd on multiple occasions whether it's intentional or not. What's your solution, ban them? Give them leaver buster which after it's finished, nobody cares about. Trolls, ragers and afkers are apart of every intensive game/moba. There is no easy way to fixing it. To fix the problem, you need to fix the people behind it and the sheer number of people who do it at least once in their time playing this game is gargantuan. Complaining about the issue without any real ways to fix it is complaining to the sky, it doesn't do anything. The company is aware and they do try to help fix and think of ideas to fix it but there is seemingly no good way in LoL to fix this. If you are so passionate and argumentative about this issue, post on boards on how to solve it and Riot will see it, otherwise you need to just deal with it and hope you're not unlucky.
> [{quoted}](name=Yukuu,realm=OCE,application-id=Ntey9fRZ,discussion-id=PbJ5Pf8K,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-22T08:31:04.525+0000) > > Obviously it's not good or healthy, I wish there were none but there are a plethora of reasons why trolls/afk's etc do what they do and it's something that a gaming company doesn't have much control over since it's the individual player and how they feel IRL. You ban them the first time they do it and you will have little-no players playing your game. People have bad days and play the game for a lot of different reasons so one day almost everyone will troll/afk. There's no good solution that Riot can implement that can fix the issue without banning it's entire player base. > Disagree completely, also they aren't trying. > Every single person I have ever talked to about this issue has trolled or afk'd on multiple occasions whether it's intentional or not. What's your solution, ban them? Give them leaver buster which after it's finished, nobody cares about. > Yep, put something in place to aggressively ban the trolls, and watch people stop doing it real quick. while your at it and give us much earlier surrender so we arn't held hostage for 20 mins. > Trolls, ragers and afkers are apart of every intensive game/moba. There is no easy way to fixing it. To fix the problem, you need to fix the people behind it and the sheer number of people who do it at least once in their time playing this game is gargantuan. > Its not the one offs that are a big problem. Go look at the threads posting match histories of people trolling consistently and not gettting caught till they are; posted on the boards or after - literally runing a hundred+ games > Complaining about the issue without any real ways to fix it is complaining to the sky, it doesn't do anything. The company is aware and they do try to help fix and think of ideas to fix it but there is seemingly no good way in LoL to fix this. > Well make your mind up, first you said they have no control, then that there's no good solution, and now that they are trying. Show me anything riots done about trolls, they've been sitting on their hands doing nothing for years. Oh wait, we have a naughty word filter, huzzah! > If you are so passionate and argumentative about this issue, post on boards on how to solve it and Riot will see it, otherwise you need to just deal with it and hope you're not unlucky. Acutally yeah, Im on the boards, and I call out any time I see people trying to give riot a free pass, eg "it evens out", "everyone does it", "its hard" Bullshit. They are a billion dollar company, they've done a lot of studies on how bad this is, how it makes people toxic, how it lowers win rates by 25% What have they done about trolls since removing tribunal two years ago? NOTHING.
Anıma (OCE)
: I can understand that considering there are millions of players but where the problem occurs in that reasoning is that that's a VERY diminutive % of players who will encounter such bad luck. You can have 1% crit in your runes but the chances of you critting 2 times in a row with them are almost non-existent. You also need to factor that these people will play hundreds of games this season so is should start to even out over time and if they are THAT unlucky in that minuscule % there are ways to prevent it, like duo queuing with people to make it 3/5 and 5/5. It's not oversimplified bad maths, it's quite subjective with a lot of "what ifs" so calling it a shitpost is quite ignorant. No matter what way you look at it it's not a "problem" like you say. My first 3 games this season I had trolls or afks. As I'm now on 100 games+ they have slowly started to even out to a reasonable %
> [{quoted}](name=Yukuu,realm=OCE,application-id=Ntey9fRZ,discussion-id=PbJ5Pf8K,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-12-22T03:42:58.442+0000) > > I can understand that considering there are millions of players but where the problem occurs in that reasoning is that that's a VERY diminutive % of players who will encounter such bad luck. You can have 1% crit in your runes but the chances of you critting 2 times in a row with them are almost non-existent. You also need to factor that these people will play hundreds of games this season so is should start to even out over time and if they are THAT unlucky in that minuscule % there are ways to prevent it, like duo queuing with people to make it 3/5 and 5/5. > > It's not oversimplified bad maths, it's quite subjective with a lot of "what ifs" so calling it a shitpost is quite ignorant. No matter what way you look at it it's not a "problem" like you say. My first 3 games this season I had trolls or afks. As I'm now on 100 games+ they have slowly started to even out to a reasonable % "It might be reasonable that it will even out for the community as a whole, it is NOT reasonable to say it will even out for an individual. You can't reasonably use the individual's perspective of having a better chance of the enemy having a troll but then use the communities perspective of large numbers to say it's ok." Nobody cares that you have played 100+ games already, your not average. 100 million accounts, the post I read was 2.9% would get more than half after 100 games so thats 2.9 million players. So "its not a problem" is wrong. I dont even care which team the troll or feeder is on having them on the enemy team isnt good or healthy for the game. Duo queue is not a solution, the other team will have a duo which reduces the chances evenly for both teams. Hell why dont you say just have pre-made 5's. Tada I've solved it. No, people want to and do play solo. The solution is for riot to DO SOMETHING.. woooo i said it. You shouldn't have to play for hundreds of hours to have got just the "average" number of trolls. Posts that say "its not a problem" and try to justify it with random snippets of numbers are shitposts in my opinion.
Anıma (OCE)
: Statistically speaking, if you aren't toxic or a troll that's 4/5 people on your team that can and 5/5 on the enemy so it should happen to the enemy more than you even if you do not realise it. The trolls in that game are just super unlucky for you to have but learning how to deal with them, focus on yourself and learn is by far the best thing you can take out of it. When I smurf, I can win games 4v5 with int feeders on my team. If you try to learn enough you can get to that too. The ranked reporting thing is really weird, sometimes mine seem to go through, sometimes they don't. Weird af. And with the ranked thing, I don't really know what you mean by that but you will verse people the same mmr as you. For instance, if you're in bronze 3 you will verse people who are around your division unless they have high or low mmr for their division e.g Silver V playing with you because of low mmr (too many recent losses). As a side note, asking for someone to duo boost you on the official board where Riot roams frequently is quite risky xd
> [{quoted}](name=Yukuu,realm=OCE,application-id=Ntey9fRZ,discussion-id=PbJ5Pf8K,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-12-22T02:32:25.627+0000) > > Statistically speaking, if you aren't toxic or a troll that's 4/5 people on your team that can and 5/5 on the enemy so it should happen to the enemy more than you even if you do not realise it. This is just badly oversimplified math, and really needs to stop being posted again and again. Your so called statistic will be true for a group of players, lets call them "B" however with millions of league players there's also a very sizable group "A" and "C" A's get lucky. They have even less than the average 45% of trolls on their team, they have 26% of trolls they encounter being on their team. C's, well C's get screwed, they are the guy on the other team to the A's, the one who's not trolling, but in 74% of their game the troll ends up being on their team. The problem is these are real groups of millions of real people. So posting oversimplified bad math and saying its not a problem is just straight shitpost imho.
Tele (OCE)
: > Although what sticks in your mind more? Something you heard about? or something you experienced first hand? + I think you're closer to a first hand experience in an educational video actually. Not only do you see everything from the Challenger player's perspective, but also the player is doing in-depth explanations about why he's making certain decisions. [Foxdrop](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQqpJz0Axi0) even went as far as getting an Eye Tracker so you can see exactly where he's looking. + However, when you're in-game with a high elo player you're a bit more detached IMO (even when you lane against one). If he's not in your lane, you can't look at everything he does because you have to focus on laning. And he might be in the fog of war a lot depending on which team he's on. You'll have to guess why he's doing things too. You won't get handy explanations like in a video. There's definitely things you can only learn while playing, like dodging/landing skillshots, CSing, executing combos etc. What I don't understand is, why you can't you just watch a really [in-depth 30 minute video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuI1ubRmZB0) on laning, or have a talking session with a coach/mentor, and then go into a Solo Queue game to practice what you learned? _Why do you have to practice with/against a high elo player?_ __* Here's just some small clarifications :D > there have been numerous ways people have proposed, little tweaks that would improve the game for the better My "stance" doesn't exclude a change like that. I'm for it as long as that small tweak is something only Riot can do (e.g. ping in the client). And yeah, Dynamic Queue was really bad ahah I'm happy Riot was trying solutions for toxicity, but DQ wasn't tested properly. It should have been removed in the first 3 months :( __* > I dont think anyone said "educational videos" specifically, "educational tools" was what im proposing. "Educational videos" was just part of my example to explain what kind of situations I would, and wouldn't be in favour of Riot intervening. I wasn't trying to say that's what you were in favour of. Like how no one mentioned replays either, I just brought it up as an example :P
> [{quoted}](name=JustDonnie,realm=OCE,application-id=T8eq2lFQ,discussion-id=PX5VHney,comment-id=00010000000000000001000000000000000000010000000000000006,timestamp=2016-12-21T09:45:58.534+0000) > > Nailed it on the head there Tele, > > Thanks so much for the link to that video Tele, however i think i misunderstood it. **All i managed to take away from that was a whole bunch of promises from Riot that theyve not delivered on.** That video was from 2013, with Lytes team promising a functional honor system, with positive reinforcement for players, and his comment of "We want to focus our attention on neutral players, to positively reinforce them before they get toxic, and to either shield players or remove toxic players from the game". > You and me both, waiting for years now to see or hear something being done about toxic in-game behaviour's. I don't and never will care about verbal toxicity and think riots priorities are stupid, and only based looking like they are doing something. Aka. This is too hard, lets ignore it for the next few years. The stats show trolling/etc result in very bad experiences for their players and things are the same if not worse than when we had Tribunal.
Ninox (OCE)
: First of all, I have my disagreements with Riot, this particular issue is one of them. If I could have any one thing from Riot it would be more transparency with behaviour statistics because it is a real nightmare to answer some people here on boards. Second, just as I cannot definitively prove to you they are not lies because I lack those stats, you cannot prove to me that they are lies, as you also lack those statistics. From where I stand, I see the system working, from where you are obviously you don't. It's just one of those agree to disagree kind of scenarios. Third, not a he, and fourth, it's not a job, I don't get paid. I do this on my own time because I enjoy it and it's satisfying work for me. I have no obligations to Riot and am bound only by guidelines. It is a volunteer position.
Shouldn't the obligation be on riot to show it is working? I can show you a list of 800 games and the resulting 37% rate of afk/dc/troll. but your just going to say your one person, law of large numbers etc I can show you screen shots of intentional feeders match histories for large numbers of games with the account continuing to be active daily. You can seeming just, say that I'm just a Negative person, but no, I see people posting it doesnt work well, I see match records showing it doesnt happen, I see no evidence from riot its working or being worked on. Maybe it just feels like its working for you, the law of large numbers means yes, some people will encounter less toxicity. Maybe the reason it feels like a nightmare on the boards is because 4/10 games are bad experiences and riots done nothing apart from give us a naughty word filter in the last 5 years.
Maraudaur (OCE)
: I'm really sorry you had to experience that. It sucks balls to lose a game cause of that and I feel you man =( To answer your question what is actually being implemented here; You can read all about our systems here; http://boards.oce.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behaviour/Y9YJ60Fn-player-behaviour-faq We have Intentional Feeder Detection > What about intentional feeders? > > There is a separate system that focuses purely on feeders. If someone is feeding intentionally in multiple games then they will face temporary account suspensions and possible bans if they show no signs of reform. It's there and we continue to have a team dedicated to improving the experience for you all. It's not perfect but we continue to iterate and improve as we move on. Unfortunately there has been a delay in updates and features in this space because of all the work required to bring it all into the updated client, but as that gets closer to release and moves out of beta you should see more progress in the Player Behaviour space. I went to investigate whats going on here....and lets just say the system has already investigated and taken the necessary action on the account. But to be honest, punishments alone wont prevent you from having this experience again. Punishments might help you feel a sense of justice after the fact but it doesn't shield you completely from experiencing it in the first place. It will prevent a little bit as some players may be deterred knowing that punishments are in place. > There is no silver bullet that solves negative behavior in online games. Players are a diverse bunch, and each player has different motivations and responds differently to different consequences. We design diverse systems using three core philosophies based on reform, punishment, and reward.
Can you explain how feeder detection stuff is linked to the new client release? Wouldn't it be your Feeder detection system running on your end auditing games and spotting this crap. Not some software running on the clients? Or do you mean that teams busy working on the new client and not working on the detection systems. The latter seems like whats going on, There's been no news on you guys doing anything about feeders or trolls outside of the IF Detection stuff that came out a year ago, and clearly still isn't working very well. If it cant even catch a guy going 0/18, 1/25 etc, its got 0 chance of catching the troll's I run into who bait/fountain dance/ steal lanes/cs/ks and have much better scores but have still intentionally lost the game. And yeah, c'mon punishments will 100% stop this experience, this guy wont be playing. If you did remove them from the game in a timely fashion, a lot less of us would be running into them.
Tele (OCE)
: > IDK if anyone's done a comparison of league's systems to another pvp game, or any data from Riot on how fast the system reacts. If you've got any articles, I would be keen to read, I'm quite interested Sadly, other companies haven't shared as much about their detection systems, so a comparison like this isn't possible. Instead I can explain why I think that way with a few examples: + The DoTA 2 detection system is simply based off the **number of reports you receive**. While League's system has automated systems to check the validity of reports. And in our case just one report is enough for the system to investigate someone and ban them (if they are guilty), but in DoTA 2 this is not possible. Here's a few quotes and sources for that; _"When one recives the high number of Intentional feeding or Ability abuse reports he will be sent to lPQ (Low Priority Queue) due to [Excessive number of reports](http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/581323629913308207/6B01925FEB6674C2F80F534B8CD56D339D6992E4/)"_. [Source for quote.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/54gfqi/report_system_account_flagging_and_its_flaws/) The punishment system is also severely flawed. Intentionally feeding will not land you a permanent ban ever, just many LPQ matches. [Source](http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Report) and [Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/5he55h/intentional_feeding_needs_to_have_a_stronger/). + CS:GO's [Overwatch punishment system](http://blog.counter-strike.net/index.php/overwatch/) is really awesome, but in many ways our system does the same thing + more. CS:GO does not have a automatic detection system for feeding (or as they call it "griefing"). This means detection must always be done by a real person in the Overwatch system, which is slow. Also since there are more reports than Overwatch participants, the only [players reviewed](https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7562-IPJN-1009#review) are those which have received many reports. On the other hand our Instant Feedback system (which handles feeding and chat bans) works [within 15 minutes](https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/207489286-Instant-Feedback-System-FAQ-#h1q2) of a game ending and reviews EVERY report. The Overwatch system can also detect 'nuanced' feeding, because it's reviewed by real humans. Our automated system can't do this, **but our manual review system can**. Our manual review system seems very similar to the Overwatch system, but to be fair I think the Overwatch system is probably a little better and faster, in nuanced feeding cases (as it has more people reviewing reports). But don't forget we would far outpace it in standard non-nuanced cases that are handled by the automatic system. Super long explanation, but that's why I think we've got the best system out. To this day I haven't seen a better overall behaviour system for a large multiplayer game. No other game has something this advanced. It's especially impressive when you consider our disadvantages too. For example, CS:GO has shorter matches so the [Overwatch system's cases only take 10 minutes to review](https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7562-IPJN-1009#howwork). But our matches have an average length of 20 - 45 minutes. __* > Just FYI, your chronology is off, Lyte posted about the upgrade 6/11/2015 the first game in the trolls history is 10/11/2015 Your dates are correct, but this system was live ONLY on NA the day it was posted (6/11/2015), if you read the post carefully you'll see **Lyte** mentions this. Then I believe around 3 days later it was added on EUW and even later still on EUNE (where the Tahm incident occurred) and other servers. Sadly **Lyte** forgot to update us on those other times, but having a gap of over a month between the testing and live release is very reasonable and has occurred with almost all other systems in the past. Even if the new system was operational on EUNE when the Tahm was feeding, I think it's fair to allow for some issues within the first few weeks while they make adjustments. And as I said before, stuff does slip by, no system is perfect. __* > There's no system to detect the guy who follows me around as a jungler doing his best to steal my jungle farm and not covering his lane. You keep saying this, but I've told you multiple times that a **manual review system** is in place for these behaviors. If evidence is the problem I can link plenty. **Lyte** says _"These more nuanced behaviors will require more research and advanced machine learning to tease apart, and **are being punished by Rioter manual reviews today.**"_ OR [this](http://support.lol.garena.com/en_SG/articles/442) Garena support article specifically about their manual review system. OR **Riot Tantram** telling people they were punished by a manual review on multiple occasions [here](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/MIBGEN1J-the-issue-with-the-behaviour-system-is-that-it-is-too-black-and-white?comment=000500020000), [here](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/axT0mNKk-riot-admitted-to-inappropriately-suspending-my-account?comment=000000000000000000000000000000000000) and [here](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/axT0mNKk-riot-admitted-to-inappropriately-suspending-my-account?comment=0002). ___* Also I'm not sure who's disliking your posts but please stop ahah XD He's making a real effort to learn more about the system, I would be overjoyed if most players cared even half as much.
TLDR; Thank you for your responses, its been a good conversation! Looks like I'll have some reading material for the next few days :) I've personally got a very up and down relationship with league, based off playing for a while, running into a series of clever or "subtle" trolls in game and then throwing in the towel, most recently I came back because of enjoying watching worlds. I have been notified of automated ban's and I have seen people punished using the manual process. But my personal record of 4v5(afk) and 4v6(Inting/trolling) games remains unchanged percentage wise. I'm now in the kind of general "Displeased / Fed up" phase where I'm getting involved in the forums and reading anything released by riot / dev's / reds about acknowledgement of the "troll" problem / upcoming improvements / testing etc. However since that doesn't seem to exist, and knowing ~36% of my games are going to be 4v5 or 4v6 situations, I feel like its a lets check the forums in 6 months dealio. I know there's no "answer", and I'm not expecting you to give me one, that the answer will be a large system like the current automated one, a reason that I try to talk generally rather than personally, and to foster any conversation that will get this issue on Riots radar in a meaningful way.
Tele (OCE)
: That case is really really questionable for sure. But the system's been [upgraded](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/i5yNt3I5-upgrading-the-intentional-feeder-detection-system?show=flat) and tweaked a few times since then. Also a report sent to Riot Support of feeding even 1/4 of that would undoubtedly result in a perma-ban. I would be extremely surprised if there was a more recent case of this happening to the same scale. Either way, as with any system there will always be mistakes and things that slip through. No one here is claiming the system is perfect, but things like _"its not very good"_ or _"riot has done nothing on the problem of people with toxic in-game play"_ is simply not true. Riot has the most advanced feeding detection system out of any video game ever. I would easily consider it "very good" compared to other systems.
Any evidence to support your claims about the system Tel? IDK if anyone's done a comparison of league's systems to another pvp game, or any data from Riot on how fast the system reacts. If you've got any articles, I would be keen to read, I'm quite interested Just FYI, your chronology is off, Lyte posted about the upgrade 6/11/2015 the first game in the trolls history is 10/11/2015 My point really is, I can show examples that its "not very good", I see in my games its not very good, I feel like its a completely reasonable position to take. I could probably be a bit clearer about "people with toxic in-game play" I mean trolls, moreso than feeders, There's no system to detect the guy who follows me around as a jungler doing his best to steal my jungle farm and not covering his lane. At least anything I've managed to find says basically, its a hard problem and we don't have a solution, and we are not working/focused on it. This is parapharasing Red's on the boards as well as Lyte before he left.
Tele (OCE)
: Oh thanks for pointing this out. I didn't notice this was actually about gameplay toxicity not chat toxicity. Sorry about that ahah :D __* I think you've misunderstood quite a bit about the gameplay toxicity stuff though. I'll try clear that up now: + There is a system in place for [intentional feeding](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/oH6zB1eg-detecting-and-banning-extreme-intentional-feeders?show=flat), and people who get detected by it are punished through the Instant Feedback system. It works really well for standard intentional feeding, especially if the behaviour is consistent. For example, 2/18/4 Jinx or 0/12/1 Ezreal. But you are correct that the intentional feeding detection system isn't so good at detecting **subtle** feeding/trolling. For example, 'playing normally most of the game and then randomly running it down mid twice'. **Lyte** talks a bit about this [here](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/yFLxpAcV-qa-about-player-behavior-systems-chat-log-reviews-and-feedback?comment=00080000). **_That doesn't mean that these players will not be banned though_,** these players will still be caught in manual reviews. The only downside is that it may take a lot of reports before they get punished. [Here](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/sU5wOfFJ-proof-that-the-automated-system-is-broken)'s an example of someone being caught by a manual review. Also where did you read that Riot doesn't look at report tickets anymore? All my Riot Support contacts say they do look at report tickets if they are legible and have evidence/information. I hope that helped :)
Oh yes, IF Detection is legit, its not very good... but it exists and is automated. Trolling though, the "manual" process, yeah, lets be real, "The only downside is that it may take a lot of reports before they get punished. " There is no may in that sentence. - http://prnt.sc/96oiu8 This is my favorite, 70 games of full tilt, tahm kench, eat your team mates and spit them to their death trolling. In ranked. This guy was only caught because of a forum post, begging for a red. If the system or the support tickets dont flag someone going 0/10 5 games a day for two weeks well.. Yeah.. Riot need to do a lot better, IMHO
Tele (OCE)
: This system is actually really complicated and (understandably) most players don't bother to watch **Lyte**'s 2 hour lectures. So naturally there's always confusion around this. Anyway, here's a simple explanation of how the Instant Feedback system works: (Adapted from [this](https://lol.garena.com/news/general/improving-player-behaviour-2-%E2%80%93-instant-feedback). )) > When you report someone, the Instant Feedback system will check their chat logs for evidence of toxic behaviour. > > Then either 2 things will happen: > > > + _If there's no evidence of them being toxic, then nothing happens._ > > If the evidence isn't there, then more reports will lead to the same outcome. The system needs evidence to punish. > > > + _If they were toxic, then they'll be punished._ > > More reports after this won't trigger extra punishment. But they're used by the system in [other ways](http://pages.citebite.com/k5h5o9v7k1eun). > We can't really predict how the system will judge your specific case, but from what you've said it looks like he'll be punished. However, if it is someone's first minor offence and they had a positive history up to then, the system might give them a pass. **Lyte** talks a bit about this[ here](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/yFLxpAcV-qa-about-player-behavior-systems-chat-log-reviews-and-feedback?comment=005d0000). I hope that helps :D
Right, so reading the OP, as this person says "his/her actions would still be present with a chat ban " IE, this person was ACTING Poorly, aka troll, so " Instant Feedback system will check their chat logs " and wont find any so called evidence. Basically, there is no detection in place for trolling, riot has done nothing on the problem of people with toxic in-game play (vs chat) don't acknowledge it beyond saying its hard to fix (cough cough, 4 years ago) You could try lodging a ticket, however I don't believe they look at them anymore from what I've read on the forums. Welcome to the cesspool, dont expect it to get any better.
: Hey CapNRoddy, Normal Draft was a VERY unhealthy queue. Queue times were higher than 30 minutes at any level and teams were not balanced. Unfortunately in OCE this queue is almost impossible to sustain.
All of your data says that the new champ select is a better experience. But sure, lets not give it to players. Replace Blink Pick.
Maraudaur (OCE)
: Hey JasonWazza, Let me try an provide insight into the two topics you raised. **1) How about actual stats?** I am definitely not an expert on this field but if you are super interested here is a similar question that was posed to Riot Lyte a while back. https://ask.fm/RiotLyte/answers/132695895746 > **you say "harsher punishments are showing pretty successful reform rates." Are we ever going to see the statistics? Also are they going to be REAL statistics? I say real because for example ""harsher punishments are showing pretty successful reform rates". Do they even have the option to be 'toxic'?** > We've often posted our statistics in academic talks, or industry talks like GDC. However, we're generally not going to post immense detail about statistics in a random social media post or blog post. > When I think about it, very few companies release full blown studies on their work to "prove" their statistics. Secondly, we're extremely transparent compared to most companies about our data, and you can see numerous peer-reviewed publications about some of our work conducted by external universities. For example: > 1) Regulating Anti-Social Behavior on the Internet: The Example of League of Legends (Kou & Nardi, 2013) from UC Irvine > 2) Exploring Cyberbullying and Other Toxic Behavior in Team Competition Online Games (Kwak, Blackburn & Han, 2015) from QCRI, Telefonica Research and University of Washington. > 3) Predicting Crowdsourced Decisions on Toxic Behavior in Online Games (Blackburn & Kwak, 2014) from University of Washington. > 4) Governance in League of Legends: A Hybrid System (Kou & Nardi, 2014) from UC Irvine. > We're also officially collaborating on some work coming out later in 2016 with MIT and University of York and both are coming out in peer reviewed journals. **2) Lore** - The dev blog does a way better job than I (they are the expert story tellers) - http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/creative-spotlight/dev-blog-exploring-runeterra But if I will provide my take and some excerpts from the big post, go a bit more in depth than I did in the initial post. The original story was kind of only there to build a "reason" to explain why the game was the way it was. * How did you as a player come into it? **Summoners** * Why are there all these champions fighting each other? - **The Institute of War** * Why are we fighting on the same map every game? - **The institute of War created the Fields of Justice (Summoners Rift) to resolve conflict in a controllable and systemic way.** Etc etc > In the early days of League, we created a fictional background that would justify how players could control champions during games. We came up with concepts like Summoners, Fields of Justice, an Institute of War, and indeed, the League of Legends itself – all in an attempt to provide fictional context for in-game action. All of the above caused an interesting issue, with all conflicts being resolved on the Fields of Justice stories would become repetitive. With these all powerful "Summoners", our awesome, strong, devious champions just felt like puppets that were being manipulated by higher power. > After a while, these early choices began to create unexpected problems. Every new champion needed a reason to join and remain in the League, and as their number grew, the net result was that over time the world started to feel, well, small, and eventually less interesting. The institutions we’d designed fostered creative stagnation, limiting the ways that champions, factions and Runeterra itself could grow and change. Furthermore, the very idea of all-powerful Summoners made Champions little more than puppets manipulated by godlike powers. The background we’d created to explain in-game action was ultimately restricting the potential narrative development of the game’s defining characters. So because of all of this we decided to separate the game and story. > we’ve decided to push League’s story beyond its original focus on explaining in-game action and forge a new narrative path for Runeterra – a world in which the factions and champions we all know and love have full freedom to grow, travel, and kick ass on a worldwide scale. From champion interactions to bios to events (and beyond), we aim to expand the scope of League’s story and pursue a more dynamic and wide-ranging world fit for the outsized capabilities and personalities of our champions. What about the older stories? > Does this mean older story efforts like the Journal of Justice and League Judgments are meaningless? Of course not. In the same way that we can go back and enjoy old books, shows, films, art, and comics that have been superseded by more recent interpretations of the same material, League’s original lore remains a cherished part of its history. From comic books to classic literature, exploration of the same creative space in vastly different ways is a natural part of storytelling. Look I agree with you, it sucks that after that dev blog post it took us awhile before we released anything. I would like to ask what your thoughts and feedback about the stories and champion bio updates I posted above, what did you think? Especially the latest Bilgewater novella + Shadow and Fortune continuation.
Maraudaur do us a favor and stop with the red herring's! AFAIK Facts are; There is no public data or research anywhere to suggest the new Champ select will reduce Feeders/AFK's/Trolls (Red herring #1) There is no public data or research anywhere to suggest Intentional feeder detection is working There's plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest it ain't. EG; http://prntscr.com/96oiu8 (note the dates) So please, stop referring people to Lyte's posts / Articles based off data from prior to April 2013, and usually discussing Tribunal as having any relevance in 2016. (Red herring #2) As you can probably tell, I'm quite frustrated with (afk's/leavers/trolls) and in my experience is still huge (Recording 10/20 games with one in a game) Question / (Red herring #3) There's no data on how leave buster is working, however some lyte quotes saying 19-34% reduction. What is this percentage measuring? Is it your system is detecting 19% less? or 19% less reports? something else? On a unrelated side note; interesting stats in the kwak paper, Chance of winning with a feeder ~8%, Negative attitude/Offensive ~25%

Revelstoke

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