Rioter Comments
: Alright this is probs gonna end up a bit long so bear with me. ___ #Game 1: Nothing here strikes me as particularly noteworthy. There's a lot of insistent and largely unnecessary calls to report the Lux (if they were doing half of what you said it's obvious to anyone it's report worthy), but there's nothing in particular that stands out, it's more a general negative atmosphere you are generating. **As far as punishments are concerned:** I doubt that game counted as anything more than a recent negative flag on your account (i.e would never have seen you punished on it's own), and was included in your reform card as recent negative history rather than a prime example of what netted you a punishment. Since it was the most recent game it sounds like it was the straw that broke the camel's back. **As for how your behaviour affected others:** You were negative pretty much throughout. You had a trolling support sure but you were only adding to the negative experience for you and your team. Both you and your team would have had a much better time if you'd just expressed once that they were trolling and you're lane would be sketch, muted them and got on with the game. It's not impossible to carry one person, even if they aren't really contributing. It's damn near so to carry them *and* someone who gave up on the win damn near from the start. Ask yourself what you gained from going on and on about the Lux. It sounds like they went into that game to troll and ruin an experience, and you helped them do that by giving up the game and by fuelling the fire. It it worth it? Would you enjoy playing with it? ___ #Game 2: Seems like there might have been a few people you were having disagreements with here, and it sounds very much like it was over certain decisions made by the jungler. There's a lot of negativity here, some more explicit than others. **The lines that stick out:** >HentaiEnthusiast: dnt come bot HentaiEnthusiast: ali u are trolling HentaiEnthusiast: lol i think he means you cant jsut ruin 4 poeples game then expect them to let you off with a early gg >HentaiEnthusiast: not like you died 9 times in 19 mins HentaiEnthusiast: basic lol is that u dnt gank a lossing lane >HentaiEnthusiast: youre 0 /11 stop talking >HentaiEnthusiast: alistar stop talking **As far as punishments are concerned:** There was some pretty blatant negativity here. You obviously had your disagreements, but you can't expect everyone to play to your exact designs, because everyone plays differently. Insulting a player who is doing bad is hardly going to help your cause. I'd think it would be fairly obvious why this game was included. **As for how your behaviour affected others:** If I call for Baron, and the team doesn't come, that doesn't mean they did the wrong thing, nor does it mean I made a bad call. Everyone will have different ideas of how any given game should play out, and everyone will interpret games in different ways. It seems the disagreement started over a failed gank, and went downhill from there. Instead of just letting it go and getting on with the rest of the game, you focused in on that mistake and keep bringing it up for the rest of the game. All you accomplish with this is to distracting and tilting your jungler (moreso than they are by a failed gank), distracting yourself by typing too much, and dwelling on an early loss of ground that can more often than not be made up quite easily. Even if it can't, hurling insults at the jungler and criticising them at every turn isn't going to improve your odds any. Instead of it being a small mistake, you blew it up into this huge argument that soured the entire rest of the game, and certainly contributed to (if not caused) the loss here. Even if someone has made the absolute worst call of their life, and there is no way on this earth that you could ever agree with it, what do you gain by abusing them for it? At one point or another we've all been that player that make The Huge Mistake that damn near (or does) cost the game. Rubbing their score in is just the cherry on top. Tell me you've never gone 0/11 before and I won't believe you. Players are people, people aren't perfect, and you can't win every game. Those realities are very important to accept if you want to have success (and *fun*) in ranked. ___ #Game 3: There's not all that much different going on here than from Game 2 so I'll be brief. Again you pretty much honed in on one person's mistake and started tearing into them for the tiniest reason. It sounds like maybe they didn't respond so well but that's beside the point, this is about *your* behaviour after all. **The lines that stick out:** >HentaiEnthusiast: idiot HentaiEnthusiast: u haev 0 assits HentaiEnthusiast: yikes HentaiEnthusiast: nice feed idiot HentaiEnthusiast: youre 0/2/0 HentaiEnthusiast: what have you done? HentaiEnthusiast: your straight soft-inting HentaiEnthusiast: guys looka t thresh HentaiEnthusiast: look waht hes doing **As far as punishments are concerned:** It sounds like they made a mistake and that you started this, but even if they *had* started it you are still judged for your own behaviour. Two griefers just makes double the grief, two toxics makes double the toxic and so on. ___ #Your Comments: >I feel like I am having an admirable attempt in these games of refraining from insulting the person behind the behaviour Ultimately, the only way you're going to understand why you were punished for this is by trying to see it from the other side. You get into a game as jungle, and your first gank doesn't go so great. Terribly in fact because you ended up giving the enemy bot a double kill. It was an honest mistake, and one you could recover from, but instead you've been put on the defensive by your adc who is now tearing into you and accusing you of feeding. You get into a game as support, you lag/look away/lapsed attention for a moment and ended up dying. Not that big a deal you'll come back from it (it's only one death after all), or so you thought. Now your adc is abusing you so you decide to be vindictive and take his CS. You're being an ass as well, but the adc is hardly blameless here. >this is obviously unproductive because it will never have the desired result. You're pretty much spot on here. No matter what the reason for their behaviour, whether it's a mistake, an active troll or a negative nancy, "confronting" is never the answer. Discussion might work sometimes, but in game isn't really the place for it so I wouldn't really recommend that either. All you're doing is tilting someone who wouldn't have been, fuelling the fire, creating more negativity or some other negative outcome. Confronting such behaviour in game will never get you a positive result, whatever you believe of the okay-ness of how you did it. >I feel that a 10 game chat ban given the context of these games and my perceived attempt to restrain my language is unwarranted. A 10 game chat restriction is essentially a strong warning. It doesn't stop you from playing, it's just a "hey, you're behaviour hasn't been all that great lately and we want you to know that so you can tone it down a bit". "Perceived" is also a key term here. Punishments are ultimately decided by what behaviours players choose to report or not, so they are issued in the context of what the community as a whole perceives rather than the perception of an individual. As for the specifics that is largely what the above was for. >I maintain that I have never griefed in a game because I believe this to be worse then even insults like 'kys' or 'get cancer' This isn't true of everyone though. While there are plenty of people who feel that no chat can be worse than a gameplay offence because there are options to prevent chat but not gameplay, there are also plenty who believe that just because you can hide things like "kys" with a mute it doesn't make them any less serious. League's systems have to be tailored to as wide a span of the community as possible, and especially in a 13+/M rated game (and let's be honest there's much younger as well) it can't just be a free for all. If you are closer to one extreme opinion or the other, you will inevitably not be entirely satisfied with how things are moderated, that is simply the nature of a community this large, especially one with a relatively low age rating. >Keep in mind that I probably encounter blatant toxicity and/or griefers 8/10 games and /mute all 80% of those games as soon as I get an inclination. I would challenge you to keep an active log of every game and to mark each game with at least a 0-10, 0 being noone trolled or was toxic and 10 being everyone did (yes I think you should include yourself). Bear in mind than when I say trolling I mean actual trolling not just "he made a different call than me and I don't like that". Negativity bias is a powerful force, and while some players will be luckier than others due to rank bracket, times of play, premade size and so on, 80% is a huge number. In fact I would argue that if 80% of your games were that bad you wouldn't still be playing, nor would you have a near 50% winrate.
I really appreciate the reply Seras Dragon. I have been playing league since I was a teenager (6 years now) and this has been my first "punishment". Instantly I agree with what you say about perception, for example when it takes the eyes of another player to pick up on bad game play habits that can hold players back (hence why game play review coaching exists). I play approximately 20-30 games a week at the moment and these chat logs would be, for sure my worst behaviour from my last 30-60 games (I cant stress enough how often the /mute all gets used by me). What this experience has taught me if nothing else is that I struggle to maintain self control in instances of injustice or (most specifically) what I perceive to be a player going our of their way to ruin peoples experience with griefing after being forced to fill a role they dont want to play. (Im an adult and can use my self control to implement the mute all function when communication appears toxic). The context of the rest of these logs would do my sentiment better justice, however it is only my communication that is on trial. I take full responsibility that my role in all these situations is to mute all and do my best despite the situation but that these 3 logs are extreme outliers in my behaviour where the same situation has repeated itself and obviously triggered that sense of injustice that seems to be strong in me. (I was brought up in a super strict christian household where you always tried your best, always did what was right) 1. **Game 1** Agree with everything you said here. I needed to bite the bullet, mute all like I usually would and not get baited by my sense of injustice over a blatant troll who didnt want to have to fill support. My whinging about it effects nothing. I do not however believe this is cause for punishment to myself (most certainly cause for the support to be punished) 2. **Game 2** ** THIS IS ONE THAT I DO DISAGREE WITH HOWEVER** > HentaiEnthusiast: dnt come bot > HentaiEnthusiast: ali u are trolling > HentaiEnthusiast: lol i think he means you cant jsut ruin 4 poeples game then expect them to let you off with a early gg The context of where my comments were directed here makes the conversation hard to follow, I also jumped in and out of the conversation fairly randomly (again I should have muted all to stop myself getting dragged back in). Our support in this game died first blood and then again on return to lane, and I didnt say anything until jg said he would try come help to which i reply: > HentaiEnthusiast: no no no [first comment i make @ 10 mins into game, alistar is 0/3-4 at this point, im just focusing on farming and not getting baited into saving him if I cant do so without also dying] > HentaiEnthusiast: basics > HentaiEnthusiast: or lol > HentaiEnthusiast: of lol > HentaiEnthusiast: dnt come bot (What I could have said to save the game was to thank my jungler for doing exceptionally over the last 10 mins, ganking both top and mid and getting kills. My only excuse for not typing is that I had a lot to focus on dodging skill shots and typing would easily mean missing cs under tower or taking a brand combo.) Rest of the log in its entirety is directed at the support. I could have built up the jungler here with positivity and it would have been a better because it would direct the conversation away from everyone getting mad the the support. I obviously freaked out at the thought of the jungler trusting us to back him up in a gank (we had no lane priority and were stuck at tower all lane thus, follow up could be sketchy/fighting in minions) and then throwing his lead in a 1v2 vs the draven/brand. > HentaiEnthusiast: ali u are trolling > HentaiEnthusiast: lol i think he means you cant jsut ruin 4 poeples game then expect them to let you off with a early gg Top lane was telling the support to stop griefing, play properly and to not expect the rest of the team to want to forfeit with him because hes having a bad game. (rest of team were doing well, I had only died once and was maybe 60 cs behind from being zoned when support dead) My reply here WAS very negative and I should not have typed this out. I was clearly being effected by the negativity between the support and our other players and needed to mute all, this was a poor attempt at banding the 4 players who were still trying together at the expense of the player who didnt want any of this game. > HentaiEnthusiast: lol > HentaiEnthusiast: lol everyones fault but urs > HentaiEnthusiast: not like you died 9 times in 19 mins > HentaiEnthusiast: basic lol is that u dnt gank a lossing lane ["lost lane would have been a better choice of words"] > HentaiEnthusiast: league 101 > HentaiEnthusiast: its league fundumentals i dont invent these rules [context: support and jungle calling me names and saying i'm wrong, not sure why I bother to argue] > HentaiEnthusiast: basic truths of the game > HentaiEnthusiast: its not black and white like that > HentaiEnthusiast: its not about kills > HentaiEnthusiast: its more about pressure > HentaiEnthusiast: and macro > HentaiEnthusiast: youre 0 /11 stop talking > HentaiEnthusiast: waht does it matter, you lose in ranked AND normals > HentaiEnthusiast: youre 0/11 and u dnt lsot in normals? > HentaiEnthusiast: lol what for? > HentaiEnthusiast: youre 0/11 > Post-Game This block of text is at roughly the 30 mins mark when were all dead and they're ending and the support (he did this all game) Is blaming his team. Me for losing lane and blaming the jg for not ganking to which the jungler replies that I told him not to gank (with good reason). The support then going all out blaming me while I try to explain the contents of articles like this (I do a terribly vague job): I was clearly triggered that the support was arguing that my call to not have the jungler gank bot lane cost us the game. I do this contrary to my own advice to never try and communicate over chat especially something nuanced like this. The whole 0/11 thing should have reminded me that team mates should never be relied on and the only thing that is constant is yourself and how you play. > Rubbing their score in is just the cherry on top. Tell me you've never gone 0/11 before and I won't believe you. Players are people, people aren't perfect, and you can't win every game. Those realities are very important to accept if you want to have success (and fun) in ranked. **Your point here is still 100% valid, a player trolling and going 0/11 and a player not trolling and going 0/11 are worlds apart and often doesn't reflect the true nature of the situation.** I was one of 3 players in this game arguing with the support the only saint here is our mid lanner, however I feel like the lack on context here might be why this log gets included. (the jungler never did gank due to my request ("no no no" to his mention he was coming bot and "dont gank a losing lane") and we didnt interact directly beyond this statement, other than him rightly pointing out it was my call for him not to gank) I try my very best not to engage in conversation in ranked games, this and my level of concentration may have contributed to my very blunt comments early on and then wading into the argument (while dead and losing our nexus) in an attempt to defend my call. (complete waste of time, and says more about myself and my own insecurities about macro decision making than anything else) ** I STILL DO NOT FEEL LIKE I AM GUILTY OF ANYTHING REQUIRING PUNISHMENT OVER THIS LOG** (If anything i feel this log is an ode to the ineffectiveness of written communication in conveying emotion and true meaning) 3. **Game 3** This ones on me. I started off well by complimenting him (especially because he had died once) because he came back and made a good play but then when we both died later on I got baited by a negative comment and threw an unnecessary "idiot" back at him because I knew (or felt certain I knew) his macro reasoning behind the comment was flawed. The supports behaviour following where they blatantly attempt to antagonise me could have been prevented if I muted him instead. All 3 of these instances are filled supports (who didnt want to be there) that were looking to bait me to give them the satisfaction of a response. Its my bad for getting baited however I dont agree that I should be punished for being human especially considering the extreme circumstances of every game and my historical track record of good behaviour. My ideal outcome is that I dont have to click the "I agree" box on the feedback card because it would be soul crushing to me considering the amount of thought and effort I give to doing my best to not contribute to the toxic community. Game 3 is the only one I am ashamed of where I call a player an idiot but and trust me, (I think its because I play late at night) when 80% of my games contain something reportable directed at myself or others its a struggle sometimes not to use more offensive words. The sad part is that I am now playing on a new account now that doesnt have the "I agree" box conditionalising my play because I am obviously a very addictive person and I am able to ignore most/all of the toxicity using /mute all etc and not dwelling on it. It takes an event like this to make me think back objectively on games and realise how toxic they have been (seems to be worst between 12pm and 4am NZ time). I fear that people are believing that toxicity is normal and they are just becoming desensitised to it (as have I until such an opportunity to review things occured). I will definitely consider writing up a log maybe for a week of the games I play and post my results for others to compare to (so long as dwelling on the negative points of so many games doesnt make me too depressed.) **AGAIN THANK YOU FOR YOUR REPLY, I HAVE A MUCH BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF HOW MY COMMENTS IN GAME 2 APPEAR NOW**
Gehirn (OCE)
: So during my first year of playing LoL, when ahead my friends and I just let the enemy crash into our team and hoped to win the fight. Then I realized that pushing an advantage by taking the fight to the enemy near an objective we wanted was a thing, and I started to feel the same way you do now, getting frustrated when people weren't there "BUT I WANTED TO FIGHT". Then I heard a comment from Jatt about this sort of thing. It was while he was casting a pro match and I can't seem to find it anywhere, but it went something like this: "It doesn't matter why he wasn't there, what matters is that he wasn't." This is in reference to the team making a teamfight play or allowing themselves to be initiated on while one of their teammates was obviously not nearby. Point being that it doesn't matter why the person wasn't there for the fight, what matters is that the team chose to fight without them and lost when they could have been more patient and made a better play later. It made me realize that choosing to take an uneven fight just because we're ahead wasn't primarily the fault of the person who wasn't there, it was mostly the fault of the person initiating or getting caught because we chose to put ourselves in the position for the uneven fight to happen. Looking at your replay, the decline of your team in that game was primarily due to players choosing to fight with missing enemies and without respect to the fog of war/lack of vision on their flank, or fighting at a clear disadvantage when other teammates were not nearby. Sometimes they were in base buying an item, sometimes they were clearing a wave at their turret, other times they were indeed out of position on the map when grouping was the optimal choice. But if they aren't nearby, don't feel forced to fight. It is better to concede a little pressure and be alive for when your teammates are in position for a fight than to just fight because "it would have been a good fight if they were there" < that's a decision trap that a lot of players fall into and one that took me years to stop doing. It doesn't matter if it would have been a good fight if they were there, the fact is that they weren't. So choosing to take the fight is clearly just another wrong call in response to a wrong call made by one of your teammates.
THIS IS SO CORRECT, the best macro decision is that one that also accounts for what the full context of the game (AND THE OTHER PLAYERS) is. This is clear for example when you win a team fight and have multiple objectives to choose from. Maybe YOU want prioritisation of the inhib opposite Barron (if a viable option) to help snowball (transition into Barron while enemy has to clear suppers on the opposite side of the map), but your team wants to take a different inhibitor or objective, maybe they just want to clear the enemy jungle and reset. If you go try to solo take that objective and disregard your team, its longer them who are out of position it is you. Its all a two way street that requires all members of the team to participate. The players who is farming (maybe and adc) needs to have the map awareness to know when and where a fight might break out and whether he has the potential to participate (0.5 - 1 lanes distance away) and affect the outcome (maybe using the theory of numbers advantage, if anything insane has happened etc.). The grouped (or partially grouped) players need to not take a disadvantageous fight especially if their team isn't in position to take something on the other side of the map or join the fight (or if you dont trust them to join the fight). And instead you can wait patiently for the split push to create pressure before you show on the map creating your own pressure. (This is really over simplified, NEACE on yt had a good guide to split-pushing macro, while I dont think he has perfect macro its a very good start) There is a LOT of macro in league and its impossible to say that anyone ever knows THE best play but assuming its always the teams fault is going to be wrong response every time another league coach Allen 'xFSN Saber' Chen says something like 'the 4 other members on your team a NPCs and what they do can be simplified to RNG. Because of this never type to them and always make the play that doesn't rely on them. Instead be self sufficient whenever possible and concentrate on anything YOU could do better. 10/10 post from Gehim just wanted to tack on my 10c
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