Ninox (OCE)
: What I'm saying is that attitude plays a bigger role than you think. I'm not telling you to git gud. I'm saying if you want to climb you should try to focus on improving rather than winning, anything past that is your choice to enact or not, not me demanding anything. I'm trying to offer perspective, a different way to try things, just like all the others did, not to tear you down like you seem to think we are. If I wanted to tell you to git gud I'd tell you that, I wouldn't go to the trouble of typing out an essay for you, that kind of implies I'm trying to help you, just as Vonclaude and Telecaster were.
> [{quoted}](name=whitePumah,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=1ErgEln1,comment-id=00020000000000000000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-28T05:31:55.565+0000) > > It just seems like I am always receiving the same response which is to get better as if I can't already slaughter a whole team on even terms. > There is not much anyone else could really do to persuade you any further that the system is completely and utterly flawed. There is no good players will definitely climb while bad ones will not be able to. That is simply not a thing and the only way riot will be able to fix it is by creating a new system that focuses on players in their roles doing the job of their role and being rated accordingly. Ah, I see what you mean. Your key point is that the system is flawed because it awards you LP based on result as a team rather than individual skill. Over a sample size of 4000 games, in which you are the only absolutely common factor, it is plausible that it is your skill that has created any win/loss bias. But it's possible (if not super-likely over that sample size) that bad luck in team assignation has held you back. In your position, I might argue that my KDA, objectives capture, CS and kill participation were consistently higher than my team and so the results don't reflect my personal skill. It would be helpful to have facts on hand to prove that point, and they are easily checked (look at your match history and count times where it was true that your skill was visibly above everyone else). But that line of thought begs the question: how do other people make Challenger? We'd have to assume that over thousands of games they got lucky and you got unlucky. I know that isn't a satisfying answer.
Quivz (OCE)
: LP as a support
> [{quoted}](name=Quivz,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=MLwwdqVK,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-03-28T09:16:23.302+0000) > > So i'm starting to feel that as a support main i don't really have any control over my LP. I feel the same way. Supports multiply team power rather than add to it. Janna and Soraka are good examples. In Gold on up they are upper half of top ten support champions. In Bronze they are bottom half. They don't add power, they multiply it. What I'm trying at present is friending any ADCs that I play with who have a good play style. My hope is to get back into games with people I can rely on. Much the same point as Princess Yaia. Probably to rank as a Support you must get into premades...
: So basically you are telling me I should be more consistent and to get better. That I was bad before and that is why I am still in low elo. That the longer you play on an account for, the harder the games are meant to be for that account, and the key is to play on a different account and get better before you play on the main account? Cause if that is true that would explain why people get a new account and go unranked to diamond in 100 games. [ Me at season 3](http://i.imgur.com/Y1zxe0R.jpg) [Me now](http://oce.op.gg/summoner/userName=whitepumah)
> [{quoted}](name=whitePumah,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=1ErgEln1,comment-id=000200000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-27T06:10:06.479+0000) > > So basically you are telling me I should be more consistent and to get better. > > That I was bad before and that is why I am still in low elo. > > That the longer you play on an account for, the harder the games are meant to be for that account, and the key is to play on a different account and get better before you play on the main account? > > Cause if that is true that would explain why people get a new account and go unranked to diamond in 100 games. > [ > Me at season 3](http://i.imgur.com/Y1zxe0R.jpg) > > [Me now](http://oce.op.gg/summoner/userName=whitepumah) I guess I'm not trying to advise, but rather describe the system as I understand it. It relies on receiving data points (each time you finish a game) to update its estimate. So if you deny it those data points while you are practising then its estimate will remain static while your ability improves. Therefore its estimate will be wrong (too low) and it will mismatch you. Therefore your win rate will increase for awhile as you are matched against players below your true skill. Another important factor is that the system is designed to try and home in on your true skill as fast as possible. So when it first sees a player it gives them a lot of points per win/loss. Because by doing that it can quickly test where they sit. As its confidence improves (it homes in on their true skill) it will give fewer points per win loss. You can take advantage of that new-player swing with a new account: **starting a new account makes sense**. But I think if I was advising, I'd point out that the way practice works is something like this 1. You will see quick gains in the first stages of practice, then it will take more effort to make each further gain. You can exploit that by deliberately varying what you practice: becoming good at every aspect of the game rather than grinding away at just one aspect of it. 2. Improvement isn't a smooth trajectory: at some points you will see quantum jumps to a new plateau of ability. Graphed, it looks something like an initially steep curve up (early practice) flattening out (grind) then a hop up to a new plateau. You can exploit this by begging for games with people that have already made that jump. Playing with them will help you make it yourself. 3. A really hard thing to do is continue taking risks to learn new things. What happens is people find a strategy that they have initial success with, and stick to it because it generally works for them. What happens is that following that strategy will carry them so far and then they will plateau. Out of fear they will reject trying new things - too risky! You have to force yourself to break old habits and try a new way. You can get ideas for what new ways will be productive by watching other people. Or by just forcing yourself to play a new role, or do something you don't do much. If you follow the plan of having two accounts, you can make one your take-risks-and-try-stuff account and the other your serious (both ranked). Hope this makes some difference. I'm very low ranked myself and in that respect I can point out that as you age, your skill at League will fall off. That tracks with the graph for human cognitive development: over about 25 you plateau and then for most cognitive functions you decline. League demands attention, processing speed and visuospatial ability: those all decline with age.
: "ultimately it is attempting to make the outcome of your games a coin flip :)" This is the very thing I am trying to point out to everyone AND the very thing I am begging to be changed. Currently any system that rates your solo performance in a team game is better than randoms being the major impact on results that are supposedly the players ability to play.
> [{quoted}](name=whitePumah,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=1ErgEln1,comment-id=0002000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-03-26T08:25:31.379+0000) > > "ultimately it is attempting to make the outcome of your games a coin flip :)" > > > This is the very thing I am trying to point out to everyone AND the very thing I am begging to be changed. Currently any system that rates your solo performance in a team game is better than randoms being the major impact on results that are supposedly the players ability to play. Well, the problem there for multiplayer with humans on both sides is that a system that improved your chance to win would do so by decreasing someone else's chances. Say for example it was tuned so that your **matchmaking points** would stay below your **impact points**: meaning you can be predicted to win more often... at the cost of more losses to those poor players below your skill level who are forced to face you. The mitigating factors are that for one thing the arc of your improvement via practice will be long, and for another the skill you turn up with on the day will always differ from your expected skill. Sometimes you'll play out of your skin. Other times you'll under-perform. FWIW the way to manage the system is to practice outside of ranked or with another account. Then your gains in true skill won't be known by the system. So you will be matched against players below your skill level based on **matchmaking points **that are out of date (due to your extra curricular practice).
Tele (OCE)
: You have the same power to impact the game as everyone else. If you impact the game better than the average player for your rank, you will climb. _**You are the only common factor in all your games.**_ **_Look at it this way:_** + Imagine everyone has _impact points_, just as an example. The team with the highest impact points wins. The median amount of _impact points_ for Silver 5 is **20**. Let's say your impact points are **21**. You have a better than average chance of winning (higher than 50%). I was able to determine that, before I even knew who was on your team or the enemy team. That's because there's a 50% chance that the players in the game are lower than **20**, and a 50% chance that they are higher. Since you're at **21**, you'll win **more** than 50% of the time. You're going to win something closer to 51% of the time, depending on the distribution of players. _**This is how the ranked system works.**_ > Sometimes you'll end up with a team of players who are at 15 _impact points_, therefore your above the median _impact points_ isn't enough to make up for their lack of points. But this will only happen 49% of the time. > > Most of the time, you'll win comfortably, and a few times you'll be the sole deciding factor as to why your team won. I hope I didn't scare you away with all that math ;) Keep in mind there is a lot of hidden stuff in the ranked system, and I did simplify some areas, but if you want to learn more about what I explained here check out [Probability density functions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability_density_function).
> [{quoted}](name=Telecasterdude,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=1ErgEln1,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-25T05:14:27.202+0000) > **_Look at it this way:_** > > + Imagine everyone has _impact points_, just as an example. The team with the highest impact points wins. > > The median amount of _impact points_ for Silver 5 is **20**. > > Let's say your impact points are **21**. You have a better than average chance of winning (higher than 50%). I was able to determine that, before I even knew who was on your team or the enemy team. > > That's because there's a 50% chance that the players in the game are lower than **20**, and a 50% chance that they are higher. Since you're at **21**, you'll win **more** than 50% of the time. You're going to win something closer to 51% of the time, depending on the distribution of players. > > _**This is how the ranked system works.**_ I feel like that can be made a bit clearer. We need to differentiate between your **true skill** (which we will call "_impact points_") and your **estimated skill** (which we will call "_matchmaking points_"). **Matchmaking points** are used to decide who to match you against. So if your **matchmaking points** = 20 then ranked will try and match you with players who on average will also be at 20. But let's say that, as you suspect, your real skill is higher than that. So your **impact points** (your impact on the game) is higher than 20. Let's say it is 30. So you will win more games than the system expects. So it will increase your matchmaking points to 21 and see how that goes. You still win more games, so it will keep increasing your points and eventually you should win as many games as you lose. Well, it might arc you above that but you should fall to that point. It's a clever system that Elo invented, but one dumb thing about it is ultimately it is attempting to make the outcome of your games a coin flip :)
Gehirn (OCE)
: I believe I know where the confusion is coming from. It appears your account was being elo-boosted, and was detected for 3rd party tool usage at the time. Someone else may have been playing on the account, but as the creator you are responsible for any actions taken on the account. This permanent ban cannot be reversed.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Gehirn,realm=OCE,application-id=T8eq2lFQ,discussion-id=O1WeE56j,comment-id=00040001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-15T04:10:57.806+0000) > > I believe I know where the confusion is coming from. > > It appears your account was being elo-boosted, and was detected for 3rd party tool usage at the time. Someone else may have been playing on the account, but as the creator you are responsible for any actions taken on the account. This permanent ban cannot be reversed. II it were the case that a personal friend in their own home was helping them learn to play then that sounds like something that should be tolerated. Even if helping included hot-seating: socialising around a game is positive and should be encouraged. For one thing it draws in more players. If also real money was spent on the account then to me the standard of proof is higher: treating customers fairly would entail producing evidence supporting the alleged offence.
: >quints = 3 scaling-MP5 Personally i'd suggest that instead, just take the Mana regen out of the Masteries (taking 0/12/18 or 0/18/12) instead of executioner. Means you get this and can use these quints on something more useful.
> [{quoted}](name=JasonWazza,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=f8vtm4EZ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-03-07T17:42:46.731+0000) > > Personally i'd suggest that instead, just take the Mana regen out of the Masteries (taking 0/12/18 or 0/18/12) instead of executioner. > > Means you get this and can use these quints on something more useful. I feel like the scaling-MP5 is working well in conjunction with the scaling-CDR. I'm playing champions with fairly binary effects so being able to cast my spells is the most impactful thing. I can't cast if on cooldown, and I can't cast if no mana. This setup does as much as runes can to alleviate those things without giving up relevant Armor and HP. To see if this would work for you, could I suggest tracking in early levels as a support how often you aren't casting because you are oom? For me it felt too high.
vonklaude (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=SlowDownn,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=f8vtm4EZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-03-07T12:34:05.938+0000) > > In Bronze, there is no real support, you need to built damage to help with the kills. You think your adc can do the job alone if all you do is peeling and tanking? This is such an important point. In bronze, even as support you have to contribute actively to winning. My approach to play had been essentially been to play for a draw in my lane and look for one of my allies to pull ahead. But that leads to little control over wins and losses. You have to realise that if you can pull ahead in your lane, suddenly your lane opponents can't roam (and you can), and pressure is reduced on your other lanes: they can pull ahead more or more easily. So maybe the 21 Armor sheet isn't ideal. I'm currently trying **Page 2 - Tank Support** marks = 9 AD seals = 9 HP glyphs = 9 MR quints = Armor That gives you about 8.5 AD, 72 HP, 12 MR and 13 Armor. I think it is right to want some AD to deal relevant damage.
> [{quoted}](name=vonklaude,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=f8vtm4EZ,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-03-12T05:23:28.708+0000) > > This is such an important point. In bronze, even as support you have to contribute actively to winning. My approach to play had been essentially been to play for a draw in my lane and look for one of my allies to pull ahead. But that leads to little control over wins and losses. You have to realise that if you can pull ahead in your lane, suddenly your lane opponents can't roam (and you can), and pressure is reduced on your other lanes: they can pull ahead more or more easily. > > So maybe the 21 Armor sheet isn't ideal. I'm currently trying > > **Page 2 - Tank Support** > marks = 9 AD > seals = 9 HP > glyphs = 9 MR > quints = Armor > > That gives you about 8.5 AD, 72 HP, 12 MR and 13 Armor. I think it is right to want some AD to deal relevant damage. After testing in ranked I am back to 9 Armor marks. For me having 21 Armor straight out of bed is working. It seems to let me get in and CC more so perhaps that's why. The CC isn't that impacted by lacking damage since its purpose is to set things up for ADC, or peel for ADC.
Slowdownn (OCE)
: In Bronze, there is no real support, you need to built damage to help with the kills. You think your adc can do the job alone if all you do is peeling and tanking?
> [{quoted}](name=SlowDownn,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=f8vtm4EZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-03-07T12:34:05.938+0000) > > In Bronze, there is no real support, you need to built damage to help with the kills. You think your adc can do the job alone if all you do is peeling and tanking? This is such an important point. In bronze, even as support you have to contribute actively to winning. My approach to play had been essentially been to play for a draw in my lane and look for one of my allies to pull ahead. But that leads to little control over wins and losses. You have to realise that if you can pull ahead in your lane, suddenly your lane opponents can't roam (and you can), and pressure is reduced on your other lanes: they can pull ahead more or more easily. So maybe the 21 Armor sheet isn't ideal. I'm currently trying **Page 2 - Tank Support** marks = 9 AD seals = 9 HP glyphs = 9 MR quints = Armor That gives you about 8.5 AD, 72 HP, 12 MR and 13 Armor. I think it is right to want some AD to deal relevant damage.
: What are you- nuts? Just go and look up the rune pages that the challenger supports use dummy. Then laugh, laugh as people talk about your shitty cardboard 10 runes that you took straight off a challenger player that shows that those idiots know nothing.
> [{quoted}](name=DianasGotSwag,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=f8vtm4EZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-03-07T06:49:17.832+0000) > > What are you- nuts? Just go and look up the rune pages that the challenger supports use dummy. Then laugh, laugh as people talk about your shitty cardboard 10 runes that you took straight off a challenger player that shows that those idiots know nothing. There is some nice irony behind your point! When you are Bronze, you can't assume that what you see in Challenger support pages will work for you. For example, a Challenger putting CDR on a tank support like Braum knows that they will get value from CC being up 2 seconds faster, and their skill is high enough to play around the loss in resilience. Bronze play isn't like that... to put it mildly. In Bronze you take additional hits because you and your ADC over-committed. And you don't know that the damage you deal with +20AP means that your power spike at level 6 gives you 3 minutes of priority in your lane... so the value of those scaling-AP glyphs is lost on you. That's why I like these pages: they're durable at the level of play they are built for.
Rioter Comments
Fallion (OCE)
: Whats the best runes to use for a support?
> [{quoted}](name=Fallion,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=BgxJU4f2,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-01-10T03:48:44.990+0000) > > Most games I played support (Sona, Soraka, Karma, Nami and Janna) and I don't know what runes to use for them or best for them. For me I was thinking to use mana regen cause I can stay longer and protect my ADC by keep using heal or shield. I ask for advice from other people they say that you need AP runes (no need for mana regen), more CDR runes and defense runes. > I need help! any suggestion will help. > I call all the SUPPORT players please help ! > <3 support For **Janna** I am getting a lot of value from the following **Marks = 9 x Armor Seals = 9 x HP Glyphs = 9 x MR Quints = 3 x scaling MP5** The reason this works (for me) is that the biggest constraint on my casting in the early-mid game is _mana_ rather than cool down. Janna can benefit from AP but for her main job of **peel** it's not critical. Scaling MP5 Quints are strong enough that I don't need to focus on mana items. The 50% or 100% increases on mana regen from her standard items are sufficient. I usually avoid scaling runes on supports, but the MP5s scale fast enough that they work. By level 5 they're about as good, and better from level 6 onwards.
Fallion (OCE)
: As a main Support player what item should i build first? sight stone ? (Sona, Nami, Janna, karma)
> [{quoted}](name=Fallion,realm=OCE,application-id=FjGAIbRv,discussion-id=djjLoFAp,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-01-10T06:49:27.773+0000) > > I always get confuse of what to build first but mostly I build sight stone first then this {{item:3092}} after this boot of swiftness. > Is this right ? cause I want be great support for my ADC > please help :D > thanks > <3 support! It probably depends on the level you play at. I'm at the bottom in Bronze and at that level I feel you want to **back **on around **900 gold **and take **second tier of your gold item**and **first tier of your essential item**. For Janna that is Nomad's Medallion and Amplifying Tome. But for Lux that is Frostfang and Ampifying Tome. So it varies a bit. Taking Sightstone puts you back in lane a little weaker and I think you don't need it until the roaming phase after a tower is down: your trinket will serve until then. Taking boots depends on how much pressure you are under for maintaining distance, or if you think you can roam. Scaling items like Dark Seal I think depend on if you are already ahead. If you are under a lot of pressure, maybe Doran's is right.

vonklaude

Level 30 (OCE)
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